The Bar Towel

I always find it interesting when people put a post on a discussion list that has no other purpose than to stop the discussion. There are also those that want to get their comments on record and then stop the discussion. I find it facinating to hear what these folks at Mill St. have to say.
It's great that there are a lot of industry people here. It doesn't even bother me that many of them use this website to constantly promote their products. I like to hear what they're up to and of course they're just doing their jobs. I guess that I have commited the cardinal sin. I have dared question one of the makers, one of the giants, one of the gods. After all in their world I'm the lowest of lows - a peasant, a consumer. I should only open my mouth to swallow their product and if I happen to prefer another product or god forbid - have an opinion then of course I'm of no use to them. It seems that those higher beings that make the brew are free to say whatever they want on this site and they are thanked for their contributions. If on the other hand a beer drinker asks a few simple questions, he has to be shut up because he may anger the gods. It's almost comical to watch you all line up and apologise to this guy. Anyway I do agree that his fate will be decided in the market place so let the games begin.

A few more random thoughts......

"In business your first chance to make a good impression is also your last chance."

Greg,
If you want to check on the situation at the distillery district just go to their website. They have a tenants list and there is a cafe and a grill listed. There is no other information of any kind except that you can go to a map and see their locations. Next time that I'm down that way I'll peak in the windows and see if they are making any progress.

rabbit,
I can't help thinking about Mini Me grabing the minature bottle out of the hotel room mini bar and engaging Austin in a bottle fight in the movie Goldmember. We also learn that Dr.Evil is Austin's brother although he was stolen and raised by Belgians. Mini Me is of course Dr.Evil's clone so although this bottle that's in question would be size appropriate for Mini Me, his Belgian hertige would probably require a much stronger brew.

Bailey

Bailey...

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I don't have any problem with customers & beer lovers using this forum to question or criticise the brewers and other pros that hang out here. I think that people (including myself) were more concerned that the tone of the conversation was starting to get a little ugly. I'm not blaming anyone for that, and I'm not going to "pick sides" as it were. My comment on hoping that cooler heads would prevail was meant for everyone, not just those offering the criticsms of Mill St. and their product (which I have no way of judging since I've yet to try it).

As for the restaurant/pub situation down at the Distillery district, I took a pretty extensive tour of the area back in the summer, and there are plans for several eateries in the area. At the main entrance to the grounds (Mill & Trinity), there will be the Moonshine Cafe, the Boiler House Grill, and a bakery. Opened recently at the south end of Trinity is Balzac's Coffee. There are also plans for a pub with a large patio (seating for 500, I think) adjacent to the brewery, and the tenants list on the website includes a place called Pure Spirits Restaurant & Long Bar which may or may not be that brewery pub.

Right from when the grounds were first opened to the public last summer, it was made clear that the majority of the tenants would not be in place until the official grand opening of the district which is planned for May, 2003. Given the way these sort of projects tend to drag, I would expect that some of them won't be open until the summer.


Greg

I think everyone who has been around this forum for a while knows that I like everyone to express their opinions openly. With the Mill St. discussion that is no different.

However, I think a line may have been crossed. I want us to express our opinions, but I also want us to be supportive of those who dedicate their careers to beer. The Mill Street folks have spent much time and money to put together a brewery, only to encounter some less-than-positive feelings here.

I was notified today that Mill Street would no longer be participating on the forum. This is extremely saddening and frustrating. On one hand, you could say that as a business, Mill Street needs to be able to accept the opinions of the consumer, good or bad. On the other hand, perhaps they shouldn't have been slammed right out of the gate for what they're trying to do.

Regardless, they're gone, and so goes with them updates on what's happening with their future pale ale and coffee porter releases, amongst other things.

It is my goal that this forum can be place where both industry people and beer lovers can converse and share information, in an intelligent, open and friendly way. I think it benefits us all to keep it this way.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cass on 2003-01-15 15:34 ]</font>

Gee Baily (what a cute name - is that your fave tipple you candy ass?)Give Mill St a break, I would rather drink and pay that much for a product by a bunch of local lads than a lot of unknow crap coming outta Europe these days... Ever have water in Poland Or drank outta the danube ...it sucks , knowing what those commies dumped down the drain a few years back would make ya cringe... Keep up the goobd work Mill St.. you are becoming the Tornto Hospitality Workers and Chefs favourite beer SLIANTE>

Sorry Bailey but doing further research on your little rants I do declre from my lowest part of my intestinal tract that you are a true PONCE!!

So, Mill St. doesn't like the game and is taking it's ball and going home....no great loss in my mind. They have demonstrated incredible insensitivity and too much of a macro brewery attitude to their mini-micro venture. Don't sweat it Cass, they will not be missed...what is unfathomable is that they would actually convey their withdrawal from the forum to you instead of just shutting up and letting things cool down...if that is not the silliest thing they could have done I don't know what is...they made a lot of mistakes and could use some professional P.R. help as they should not personally be posting on this site since they're a walking time bomb...notwithstanding how inept these guys are, I plan to visit the brewery eventually and try their products (won't tell I'm rabbit but rather identify myself as Bailey) but they could do themselves a favour by toning down the bullshit and taking themselves less seriously...they have not made any friends so far so unless they think they're North Korea...a major attitude adjustment is in order....you're in the business of appealing to consumers and whether they're hypercritical (as some of us may be) or not, you don't win any battles by hitting back at your target market...lesson to be learned...truth be told, this string has been the most fun of any in the 'towel since it started....

Cass, notwithstanding how excited some of us may occasionally get I'd like to think that the discourse can at least be witty and/or semi-intelligent...if it is technically possible, I would strongly suggest that Mr. Batted be denied access to posting on the site...needless to say, he can always try to log in under a different name but I trust that his Neandrathal drivel will be instantly recognizable and that he can expunged from any future attempts at access...Mr. Batted, I doubt that you've ever been near the Danube but if you were I have no doubt that you've got some great photos of yourself in your KISS t-shirt vomiting over the railing....

I'll post more on this later, but I think it's sad that essentially one person (who joined on January 6) convinced a brewer that it was not worth their while to participate in this forum. The tone of Bailey's posts was aggressive and condescending, and I don't blame Mill Street for being defensive. I hope they'll reconsider.

Also, I support Cass in telling us what is going on, and letting us know how our posts are affecting his forum. I didn't weigh in earlier because I was hoping that this thread would just end.

As for Mill Streets pricing. Well if the market will bear it, they have the right to charge whatever they want. Perry has a valid point, and I believe even Michael Jackson has written on this issue. Sometimes it is better to charge more, and it does attrack a certain clientel.

As for your beers, boys, I'll let you know when I try them.

Cheers, Joe

PS flame away.

Just joined, first posting, get a life guys. With the exception of the rant of Batted (to quote Dubya "A mind is a terrible thing to lose") I see nothing wrong with what has been written about Mill St.. Some of it is very critical but these are opinions and a forum should foster the free exhange of opinions as long as they are not insulting and I don't think anyone has truly insulted Mill St. although you would not know it from their thin-skinned attitude. On the other hand, I think that they have been overly sensitive and their apparently announced withdrawal from the forum is downright ludicrous. Hey Mill St., do you really think anyone cares if we miss your announcement about your new 17ml economy bottle of Porter. If you wanted to be loved you'd be in Calcutta working with Mother Teresa's sisters but you're not. You are to be commended for the balls to start a new brewery in a terribly unsophisticated and unforgiving market but if you can't take the criticism that comes with the territory you should have stuck to accounting or whatever it is you did before you decided you were brewers. Lighten up, say you're sorry, keep quiet for a while and just listen and all will be forgiven...otherwise, stuff it.

Oh dopey me, I meant to quote that illustrious American statesman Dan Quayle whose most famous quotation I incorrectly attributed to his intellectual equal, the great George Dubya.

Greg,

I was at the site the same time that you were. I missed the third establishement but you're correct it's there in monochrome however I can't find any indication of where it's going to be. Anyway why is the brewery telling everyone that everything is open now on their boxes and on their website? I agree with you that it could be some time well after the official opening in May. I intend to take the full tour that they're offering in the spring. It's really a great place and they have a lot of festivals planned. I bet that I could have a real good time at the organic food festival, but I going to tell them I'm Rabbit

Rabbit,

Why would you want to ban Batted. I find him a lot more amusing than the other two. If you look at the three stooges picture on the website you'll see that the middle one claims to be a chef. Maybe Batted is his evil twin or his dish washer. Whoever put up the money for this venture needs to get a muzzle on these guys because they're just not ready to be let loose on the public.

Bailey

mr. batted, please do not try to speak for the beer preferences of toronto chefs. as one myself I have nothing against mill st., but they are nowhere near becoming a favourite beer of mine or any of my colleauges(those who actually like beer anyway).

kp

I found post of Batted offensive. There is no place for such low and primitive posts here. Anyone?

i drink pilsners. i don't like the taste of Steam Whistle, i wish that i did. i like the Mill Street Organic. it starts with a nice bite and then smooths out in a refreshing way.so far everyone i know likes it, including some non-beer drinkers. it's fun to watch them enjoy a "little" beer. the size is perfect for them.

i'm a cheap bastard, but i don't seem to have a problem with the bottle size or price. the guys are cool, the place has a good vibe and will get even better as they grow with the 'hood. i live here and encourage y'all to come and check out the Gooderham and Worts buildings.
Cork Town. South Central. peace out

Thank You Pauley. It's nice to see someone that has actually tried the beer say something. I like pilsners too Pauly. Unlike you, I do like Steam Whistle. I've been shying away from the comparison but since you opened the door I'll be glad to go through it. First however there's one small point. If someone that liked pilsners saw this beer on the LCBO shelf (it's already there BTW) they would not know that it's a pilsner or German Pils as it was refered to. There is no mention of the style anywhere on the box or bottle and it's simply refered to as a lager.It's called " a pure refreshing lager with a distinctive European flavour". But we know that it's got ingredients from the US and New Zealand mixed with Toronto tap water in a German pils style. Ok - the way that the beer industry labels, describes and names it's products is nothing short of a joke but this one is really out there. I guess in a world where Blue is a pilsner and Keith's is a pale ale nothing should surprie me.

Both Steam Whistle and Mill St are in historic buildings in Downtown Toronto. Mill St. thinks that Toronto tap water is a good base for their beer and Steam Whistle doesn't. Steam Whistle uses Canadian malted barley and German hops. They are both in distinctive bottles although the Steam Whistle bottle is a normal size. The Steam Whistle is clearly identified as pilsner. The Steam Whistle has the best overall branding of any new Ont. beer. They have created an identity. Creemore is the other Ont. product that also comes to mind in this regard. (There is a fantastic article on the St Peter's website about branding if anyone wants to learn more.) Has Mill St. produced a distictive brand. Yes, they are trying to, but it's impossible to figure out what's in the bottle from the packaging. They are also going to abandon what they've created and try to create an entire new brand with their next beer. They have tried to hide the price with their bottle style and they have tried to hide their ingredients and beer style with their packaging. They know that if this beer goes on the shelf as a pilsner in a normal six pack at a higher price than Steam Whistle and every other Ontario produced pilsner and lager(not to mention imports) then they've got a problem. The solution "Original Organic" - the beer for people that don't drink beer. "The beer that appeals to women and mature men."
No, I don't think so.

I'm going to use my second case of Mill St. to do some taste comparisons. I pretty much agree with Pauly. There a nice little bit of flavour to begin with. After that there's nothing. No head, no finish, no balance and no body. If Pauly likes that, I can see why he doesn't like Steam Whistle.

I asked a simple question about the size of the bottles to begin this. Everyone jumped all over the price part of the question. I don't think that they expect these bottles to be around long. The majority of this beer will be sold in the establishments that are to be on site. The price to these places will no doubt be very competetive. I think the sales reps for all of the other breweries might be shocked when they realise what's happened. These guy's figure that they've got an ace in the hole and that's why they're so cocky. Their future will be decided by what happens with this complex and not what their product does on the LCBO shelf. The brewmaster may well be a raving loon but the guy who's crunching the numbers is a pro. Their only problem will be to hang on long enough until the complex gets going. That's why they're complaining about costs and that's why their price is so high. It's all got to do with money, not beer and that's why they could care less about the beer community on this website. BTW when is a brewpub not a brewpub? - think about it.

Bailey