The Bar Towel

Okay, I KNOW I'm going to get flack for expressing this opinion...

Is it just me or are the beer prices at Smokless Joe's a little high? Now before anyone froths at the mouth let me clarify what I mean. I FULLY understand that Joe has certain beers imported for his establishment alone and that those beers would have to carry a higher premium in order to be profitable. As an example I have no problem paying $10+ for Conniston Bluebird or Henley Traditional...where else could you buy one at ANY price? I guess the thing I have trouble with is when beers like Victory HopDevil or Smuttynose Porter are over $9 when they cost just over $2 in the LCBO. Again, I know Joe "piggybacked" some extra cases on the LCBO's order but surely not for a vastly inflated cost per case? Even with overhead it's hard in my mind to justify an almost 400% mark up.

I suppose Joe charges what he feels his customers will pay and the place is seldom empty so...it must be working. Also I realize that Joe is probably the ONLY guy in town willing to stock a large variety of premium imported beer which means he doesn't have to price his offerings competitively. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd be in the place more often if the prices weren't so damn high. About once a month I "treat" myself to a visit and a bottle or two of rare stuff but as for anything I could buy at the LCBO...that's where I'll buy it.

At the end of the day I feel this is one of the inherent problems with the beer scene in this city. Joe's the only guy doing what he does, his prices are dauntingly high and his clientelle seem very specific and niche. Perhaps in a perfect world more people would open an establishment like Joe's, there'd be more competition with lower prices and then more people could afford to indulge in premium beers which might then broaden the market. But I suppose that's chicken and egg thinking...does the market expand to entice consumer demand or does consumer demand dictate the expansion of the market? Call me utopian but I'd like it all...good beer selection, reasonable prices and a super model wife with a PHD and a trust fund. If you're going to dream, dream BIG.

What, you have not these things?

In Joe's defence--and I take your critique in the spirit in which it is meant, I think--I would rather he increase his markup on the HopDevil and lower it on products like Coniston which probably cost him more. Right now, if I want HopDevil, or any others beer that is available at the LCBO, I will buy it there. If I want something else, I'll go to Joe's (theoretically. Being in Hamilton I don't get there very often). I assume the HopDevil markup will subsidize the price of the rarer stuff.

I've said it before, but it seems appropriate to reiterate it here: God Bless Joe.

Cheers, (Another) Joe

In regards to the price of Coniston Bluebird
Bitter at Smokeless Joes,I believe that Joe is charging a bit to much for this ale. I have contacted Peter Lopaty of Esprit agencies(who are the importer of this beer. Peter told me if I wanted to order a case(which is 12 bottles) it would cost around $50 which would work out to
$4.17 a bottle. I believe an acceptable markup would be double this price($8.34) while Joe sells this beer for $12.10 after taxes(but before tip)

Ahhh... Smokeless Joe's. Walk in, always get a seat, a warm welcome, quiet, candlelight, background music, some fresh bread (without having to order food!), knowledgeable staff, Joe mingling with his clients, sampling their constantly rotating 5 taps and 1 cask conditioned tap, over 250 beers on the menu, excellent food such as mussels and oysters, individual little towels for drying your hands in the bathroom, cool summer patio, overall friendly enjoyable atmosphere.

Too expensive? Sure. Worth it? Damn right!

Always get a seat? When do you go?

Jon, you've had some influence already. I was in Joe's last week and the price of Hop Devil is now down to $7.25.

I agree with every said here. I personally stay away from anything I can get at the LCBO. I saw a couple drinking a Schneider Aventinus and a Czechvar, and immediately wondered why anyone would pay so much for something so readily available elsewhere.

However, I'm not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer myself. Having more money than brains - and I really don't have much money, so that's saying something - I plunked down $12.00 for a Vintage Henley (more full bodied and fruitier than the Bluebird, much less bitter) because I wanted to try it and this was my only opportunity.

A pretty good beer, but I have to admit that the experience was somewhat ruined by the thought that I spent so much for it.

For me, Joe's is the same as the Premier Gourmet. They've got what I want, but I have to pay dearly to get it. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not

I just wish we had freedom here in Ontario. I find it disturbing that the butt of many jokes, Buffalo, has a beer store that far surpasses the "worlds largest importer of wines, beers, and spirits (tm)" that we're stuck with here in Ontario.

Let my people go ... to a place that sells good beer. I have a dream etc etc etc.

It's all a matter of perspective...any American beer afficionado visiting Joe's would be stunned by how inexpensive the beers are. Frankly, this discussion is entirely inappropriate....you guys have no idea what Joe's costs are so, frankly, how dare you question his pricing policies (do you have any idea what rent is on John St., in the heart of the entertainment district????). Why don't YOU open your own bar and then you can indulge yourself and charge 50 cents above cost for your beers...I'll certainly be knocking down your door for the two or three days that you're in business. If Joe's is too expensive, for your blood, don't go there. You want cheap beer, buy at the LCBO then sit at home staring at your navel. I hate to say this but it strikes me that some beer people are amongst the tightest people I have every met....I sell a lot of wine and you don't find this characeristic amongst wine people in general but it is an affliction that seems to be all too prevalent amongst beer people. The reason that there are not a lot more places like Joe's in Toronto is because it's a very expensive proposition. If there was a lot of money in it don't you think that Smokeless clones would be popping up around the city. The fact is people should be thankful that a place like Joe's exists and those of you who have trouble with the prices really don't know how good you've got it.

I get tired of people going on and on about Premier Gourmet and the "if only..." comments about having such an establishment in Ontario. Frankly, such an establishment would never survive here because first of all there are simply not enough people interested in esoteric brews in Toronto to support such an establishment. Secondly, the prices that they would have to charge would be so ridiculously high as to discourage most of us from buying. Alberta has had a private retail environment for years and it is an absolute wasteland when it comes to beer....why?...because it's too expensive to stock a great selection of premium beers and the demand is insufficient. The fact is that even when the LCBO brings in only a few hundred cases of a good brew and charge a very reasonable price,they can sit on the shelves of some stores for months at a time. So, if you want to be a beer geek in Ontario, get used to what will always be a limited selection and appreciate any licensee who goes to the trouble of stocking a good selection, regardless of price.

Well I apologize for offending, because I seem to have set off a few sharp replies. No offense was meant.

Allow me, however, to respond to your posts.

First of all, I don’t believe I “dared” to question Joe’s pricing policy at all, though if I wanted to I do believe that is my right. I merely stated that I go there when I want a beer I can’t get elsewhere, and that due to price I stay away from beers that I can get at the LCBO. However, I hope this forum exists so that anyone may express any beer-related opinion freely. If not, I believe I’m in the wrong place.

As I said in previous posts, I paid the $12 for a Coniston and quite enjoyed it, and felt it was worthwhile paying for it. I also paid $12 for a Vintage Henley, and while I didn’t enjoy it as much I am still glad I tried it. But, given the price, I would never order it again.

As for the wine culture comparison, I don’t think it flies. The wineries have convinced the wine crowd that they should consistently pay a lot of money for top quality wine. You know the deal: the terroir concept, French vs American oak, the Bordeau cru rating system, etc. And a lot of people pay the price, and good for them, although to my mind too many people do not so much because the wine is worth it but rather because one must keep up appearances. In other words, the wine marketers have convince many people that paying through the nose is the right thing to do for a good bottle of wine. But the beer world isn’t in that place and I hope it never gets there (although I would like to see beer marketing move away from the “beer drinker as moron” concept).

And I’m sorry that the concept of freedom is so tiresome, but I will not stop speaking out for it. I can’t agree that a Premier Gourmet-like store could not survive in Toronto. I’m inclined to think that Toronto is more cosmopolitan than Buffalo. Surely that, in combination with the GTA’s significantly larger population, would give such a store a fighting chance. But when people are against change, when the prediction of failure and other prejudices prevent the proposition from even being attempted, there’s no opportunity to ever find out the truth, is there?

Alberta an “absolute wasteland when it comes to beer?” My brother in Calgary doesn’t tell it that way. But I am sure that the selection is not the same as Ontario’s, which is to be expected, because in the same vein as before - no offense to my Albertan friends - I don’t believe that Alberta is as cosmopolitan as Toronto.

So forgive me if I refuse to “get used … to a limit selection.” I refuse to accept the status quo.

But I do appreciate your comments, I do respect them, and as you can see, I do disagree with them.

No offence was taken...I guess we're all a bit passionate about the subject of good beer and sometimes our postings can be a bit over the top. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion and this is the forum in which to voice them. As for rabbit's comments about Alberta, I'll echo them. I have the March 2002 Alberta catalogue and from Belgium the tremendous selection is the usual Oland offerings plus several beers from Huyghe-Melle which I understand that the agent is desperate to get rid of as he really misjudged the market by bringing in beers that no one was interested in. That's it for the whole country of Belgium...God help you if you're a Belgian beer lover living in Alberta. I get e-mails from Albertans asking whether I can ship them beer from Ontario all the time. From Germany you have Beck's, Dab, Holsten, Isenbeck, Lowenbrau, Krombacher Pils, Paulaner Hefe-Weisse, Schneider Weisse and Warsteiner. From the Netherlands Grolsch and Heineken. From the UK, a long list but basically LCBO General List stuff. From the U.S. Anchor Steam, Big Bear, Black Bull, Busch, Colt 45, Crazy Ed's Cave Creek Chili, Rogue Dead Guy Ale, Hamm's Premium Light, Michelob, Mickey's, Miller, Mississippi Mud, Old English 800 and Samuel Adams Lager.

Now that's a pathetic selection!!!

As for a Premier Gourmet type store surviving in Toronto, I wouldn't want to be the one investing the money in it. Our own sales track record with well-priced great beers marketed through the LCBO suggests that demand in Toronto is minimal so this store would be faced with the prospect of bringing in small quantities and having to sell them for outrageous prices. I personally doubt there is a market big enough here for a store carrying several hundred beers...but then that's just my opinion.

Ah Peter at Esprit! I always enjoy reading your replies, they're so gently worded and unjudgemental!

Frankly I dare to question Joe and his prices because it's my RIGHT. My post didn't object to paying high prices for otherwise unavailable beers, but I don't think you read that part. You were too busy frothing at the mouth over my outrageous gaul at questioning his prices at all.

I have always preferred to view this little group we have here as a counter culture. A band of well informed subversives trying to fight the good fight for better beer, larger selection and affordable prices. Perhaps you view that perspective as naive but it can happen here just as it has happened in other cities throughout North America. Am I a tightwad for objecting to 400%+ markups on beer already available at the LCBO? Apparently not, the price at Joe's just dropped by over $2. It would seem I wasn't the only one who objected to the price was I?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jon Walker on 2002-04-07 16:39 ]</font>

Okay, now that we're all friends again , I'm really curious as to your opinion on how the Premier Gourmet does it, given the suspicion is that a similar store in T.O. wouldn't fly.

Are their beer sales heavily subsidized by their deli, homeware, wine and liquor sales? Are they taking a wallop on the beer side of the ledger just so the interests of the beer geeks of Western New York may be served? Should we stop making fun of Irv Weinstein, the snow, Rocket Ship 7, Topps Friendly Markets, Tonowanda, Cheektowaga, Lakawanna, etc, throw in the towel
and admit we were wrong all along - that Buffalo is much more hip than Toronto? I'm serious here, I'd like to know what the difference is.

As for "LCBO marketing," no offense, but what marketing? As far as I can tell, the LCBO's beer marketing is wholly done gratis courtesy of this site. I get the monthly Vintages catalogue, and back when specialty beers were under Vintage's control, they'd have 1 - count 'em - 1 page devoted to two or three beers. Countless beers that were released were not even mentioned.

We have threads weaving through various topics. I'll refer everyone to my previous comments on the LCBO and a premium beer store in the "Open letter to the Minister of Consumer and Business Services" in the Beer Reviews forum (Go figure).

A couple of further points.

(1) Premier Gourmet would never survive as a beer store if it had to compete with the LCBO and The Beer Store. Yes beer is generally more available in the States but good beer isn't. It's one thing to compete with grocery stores and corner stores, quite another to compete with the largest importer of liquor and spirits in the world.

Look at what's happening with Joe's. We have complaints (be they justified or unjustified) about the pricing here in a forum made up of people who appreciate good, quality beer and who are generally willing to pay for it. How could a premium beer store carve a niche for itself? Sure, Joe can make a go of it, but I would venture to guess that there is much more to his success than simply beer selection and pricing. I don't want to be presumptuous, but I venture to guess that Joe could make more money by cutting back on his selection and catering to a slightly different market.

Simply, Premier Gourmet can do well because they have no immediate competition. If a premium beer store where to survive in Toronto outside the auspices of the LCBO, it would certainly mean there would have to be less selection in St. Catharanes, Ottawa, Hamilton . . Missassauga. I think our topic regarding pubs in Missassauga will attest to that.

(2) The is a perception that Canadian beer is good beer. People really think they are buying a premium product when they stock up on Blue or Canadian or that fancy Sleeman's stuff. As well, people think they are being really adventerous when they are drinking Stella, Corona, Carlsburg, etc. A premium beer store in Canada would have to compete with that mindset. It seems easier to distinguish between the run-of-the-mill fare and the premium market in the States.

(3) Certainly, the LCBO could do a better job marketing beer, but what incentive do they have to do so? Most people go to The Beer Store when they want beer. Even if the LCBO were to devote better and more shelfspace to beer, I doubt it would make much of a difference. Let's get them to change their lighting and storage methods first.

Anyway, supper is here. I'm sure this conversation will continue

Joe



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jcappadocia on 2002-04-07 22:04 ]</font>

For a Premium Beer market, I have to believe that Premier Gourmet has as much pressure
from its competitors as an equivalent store would up here from the LCBO. Not only do
they have another high-caliber store less than an hour away (Rochester Beers of the World), but you have to compete with high quality brewpubs and the possibility of take-home growlers. I'm sure there are a handful of decent-quality beer stores in and around the area that we arent even aware of.

You point to the LCBO being an unbeatable competitor, but I wonder - in the absence of
state-enforced monopoly, you dont see huge Liquor conglomerates in the US. This implies
to me that its not necessarily the most competitive structure for the market, for whatever reason (and it may still be a legal reason?)

Regarding the Canadian mindset, I believe that the reason Canadian beer is perceived as high-quality is simply because the market is so immature. People have not been given choices (and, lets face it, alternative choices are not nearly as well marketed as Molson/Labatt are - it takes money to make money)

There just seems to be so much more room for niche-y stores in the US then there is up here, and I dont know why.

I wonder if Lyle from PG would care to chime in on this subject? I'm extremely curious to understand why Premier Gourmet succeeds in its marketplace, and whether or not a similar store couldn't succeed in Toronto.

A beer store would do just fine in Toronto. First off, in order to open such a store the market would need to be privatized and restructured. Hence why I don't talk so much about this idea any more - it's just not going to happen any time soon.

Those who know what they are doing will always be able to find good deals at Joe's. Yes, you can pay $12 for a bottle of mediocre beer, but you can also get great stuff for $6-7. Remember that in that part of town, paying $5 for a bottle of Canadian is standard procedure. When I'm down at Smokeless I take my time and make sure I'm getting good value. Trois Pistoles, Brakspear Naturale, La Choulette, the Bush beers, even those little Rogues aren't such a bad deal when you consider the calibre of beer in the bottle.

And the truth of it is, any beer store can work if it is run on the same principles that Smokeless works on. If you are friendly, and show a genuine enthusiasm for the product (the latter being lacking at our current bottle sources), you can create a market out of virtually nothing.

And therein lies the problem here. The beer geeks are in place, which is great, but that's not going to keep too many suppliers of good beer in business. I personally don't drink more than 10 beers a week, so I know that nobody is getting rich off of me. The key is doing precisely what Joe does - gets people to trade up from their Cruzcampo or whatever into something bigger and better. In other words, this market will evolve at such time as the non-beer geek portion of the populace gets into it. The US markets only got to be the way they were by people putting their money on the line and building the market from scratch. Barriers being higher here in Canada, it's a little tougher to do that kind of thing. Look at the grief that goes into getting an LCBO listing. Get rid of some of that and we'll be in a better situation already.

Anyway, just my thoughts. You guys know I'm tight with Joe, so take it for what you will.