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I just picked up my latest Southern Tier order (MANY thanks again to Roland + Russell for making this possible) and have come across more bizarre alcohol measurements...
First off, Oat is listed as 11% on the bottle, but the LCBO stickers list the percentage as 9.1%. That's a fair difference, but nothing compared to the Unearthly: Its bottle percentage is listed at 11%, but the sticker gives the percentage as *6.5*%. What gives? A measurement that lists the alcohol content as being 40% less than what's on the label?
I remember this happening with last winter's John By. Very weird...
Magni wrote:11% v/v equates to about 9.1 w/v.
As for the Unearthly, perhaps a misprint?
i'd doubt it. the lcbo's lab is pretty solid, especially when it comes to ABV. not many brewers actually measure the abv. they just calculate it. personally, i think a lab with a continuous flow monitor is probably more accurate
U.S. micros are notorious for mispresenting their alcohol contents, epecially for high alcohol beers. They just don't test them and, if they do, they use a hydrometer which is stone age technology and not very accurate. The LCBO uses gas chromotography which is very accurate. We had a brew from an unnamed US brewer arrive and be 8% of the stated alcohol percentage which was in the range of 20% by volume., it came in at 12% and we refused it as it just was not the beer they advertised. Both Canada and the U.S. now pretty much use ALCBYVOLUME as their standard. I haven't seen alcohol by weight used anywhere for years. Rely on the LCBO sticker as the accurate measurement of alcohol.
esprit wrote:Rely on the LCBO sticker as the accurate measurement of alcohol.
I lie awake all night worrying about the precise ABV of beers. Thankfully I still live and breathe - all thanks to the LCBO labs!!
It would be funny to prank-call them asking ridiculously anal questions about how many mls per day is "socially responsible", how long we have to wait between beers at a certain ABV, and what beers are more likely to make one be an alcoholic sooner, if an irresponsible person were so inclined.
Last edited by Belgian on Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I should have added, anyone who bought OAT is not getting what they ordered as the beer they claim to have brewed is not the beer they shipped. There would be a dramatic difference in price for a 6.5% product from an 11% product...we chose not to offer our product to unsuspecting consumers as it was not what it claimed to be and we ended up shipping it back to the States as we demanded a 50% price decrease and the brewery wouldn't comply. Hope you got some sort of refund from R & R as you've probably paid a premium for this high alcohol beer and in return received a pretty standard product.
Belgian, the issue isn't what the ABV is but it certainly should be the price. I know that beers in the 10-20% alcohol range are much more expensive than beers in the 5-9% range. If you've paid for an 11% beer and get 6.5% you're being ripped off as you're not getting the beer you ordered...or maybe you don't care.
esprit wrote:If you've paid for an 11% beer and get 6.5% you're being ripped off as you're not getting the beer you ordered...or maybe you don't care.
Misapprehension. I DO care because it's excessive taxation.
I know when Perry Mason made his Tsarina 2005 Stout he got dinged extra taxes for the higher-than-expected ABV, yet he did not pass on the cost - it is usually the retail consumer who should and does pay, yet because the Tsarina order was PRE-sold Perry absorbed that entire loss, on good faith.
If we have the reverse scenario (lower than promised ABV) and the transaction does not allow the tax savings fully revert to the customer, then that is a serious conflict in policy which shows the consumer ill-favor. No way does 'good faith' extend to customers getting less than what they PRE-paid for - ever.
I can't imagine it's easy to service unpredictable costs for tiny sales when importing beers, however if such a situation as this one isn't addressed and people aren't happy, they can at least ask the LCBO for all their money back.
Thank you very much for bringing this up Flip. We are looking into this and the brewery is certainly checking things out at their end. We will keep you all posted and in the meantime, anyone who feels they did not receive what they paid for is welcome to contact us by phone or email. They will be compensated.
Something else… many of the artisanal breweries that Roland + Russell is privileged to work with are way too small to afford equipment, manpower and the expertise required to match the LCBO lab and its precision. Some European suppliers have access to independent labs, but even this approach gets too expensive and complicated. For that reason, we do see an occasional variation of alcohol level.
Now, don’t get me wrong… we will, as mentioned above, compensate anyone who feels cheated by this. It is their prerogative and right, as a consumer. Please exercise it, by all means.
As a partner in the agency that has never looked at this whole venture as a way to make easy money, I refuse to see beer (and particularly craft beer) as nothing more than an alcoholic beverage. Call me simple, crazy, romantic, uneducated, inexperienced… I will continue to believe there is more, much, much more to beer than just alcohol level. When I look at paintings on my wall… yes, there is paint on canvas and that paint is part of the artists overall cost when producing his work, but I am sure she would not be happy to hear me musing about the amount of Winsor & Newton Red #095 used in the process.
Fortunately, or unfortunately depending where you stand on the issue, we have enough brewers on this continent where each batch is cloned to ‘perfection”. It is a science and an accomplishment to be able to do that, but I say “this Bud is for you and not for me”.
On one hand, we are all trying to deregulate beer importation and sale in this country but we still seem to be focused on alcohol. Well, at least some of us.
I can tell you that the brewery certainly had no intention to mislead anyone. After all, they do not have to explain or justify their price – it is what it is. It is hard to imagine they would be pocketing more money by this. We are glad there are people out there willing to brew craft beers despite all the problems, regulations and challenges – one can think of hundreds of better and easier ways to make money.
Some of you may recall that one or two vintages of Thomas Hardy’s Ale came with a higher alcohol level than what was stated on the label, yet the LCBO did not increase the price even though the alcohol came in 2% higher. It also happened on some other imports… For us at Roland + Russell, it only meant that we had to re-label the product, therefore more time, more work and more money required before the beer could be placed into your hands, Did it cross our minds that there was more value in this beer because of 2 % more alcohol or was the value to be found in its quality, tenability and reputation? If we were to follow some of the ”logic” dispersed in earlier posts, should we or the LCBO charge you extra $0.37 per bottle? Hope not.
Here is a philosophical question then…what do we do about brewers such as Bøgedal whose every batch is different from previous ones? Even Casper, the brewer at Bøgedal is not always sure what to expect! I would like to see this beer here in this province, but do I tell him customers will demand refunds if there are variations in his alcohol levels from batch to batch. Of course not. We will bring it in and deal with issues as they occur.
Taxation is indeed based on alcohol level, but within certain parameters and ranges. We took a look at some numbers and recalculated pricing for Unearthly and the Oatmeal Stout using both the stated and actual alcohol levels found on this last shipment and guess what…the RETAIL price did not change. Anyone who has been acting as an agent knows why this is so.
My biggest disappointment is that anyone on this forum would suggest that absence of high alcohol level would qualify a beer to be a “pretty standard product”.
Perhaps, I should be drinking more vodka???
My biggest disappointment is that anyone on this forum would suggest that absence of high alcohol level would qualify a beer to be a “pretty standard product”.
Well said Vlado. Both beers are far from 'standard products' even without considering their alcohol content.
I wouldn't be able to ask for a refund for these beers, just the fact that I can get some without heading to the US it good enough for me. Please keep up the great work bringing in new, interesting and flavourful products.
For those of you that don't know the R&R team personally, you should know that they are some of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting and would never intentionally 'rip' people off. Never.
Pub Style wrote:
I wouldn't be able to ask for a refund for these beers
I'll try to sound less angry this time.
I think 90% of people would never return beer that's bloody hard to get in the first place, and are drinking it more for the flavor than the ABV - I'm just saying, IF people were feeling over-taxed, the LCBO will deal with those few returns, so nobody has to bear hurt feelings toward the breweries or "Provincial tax grabs", or anybody.
It's "built-in to the system" and I think the LCBO would just absorb that, as part of their wonderful position of absolute control. I believe I was careful not to point fingers since the "return option" makes resolution easy, and thus blaming is both irrelevant & presumptuous.
Again I do appreciate importers trying to deal with unpredictable costs for small-sized orders in private sales, and the huge ABV swings are probably something that causes them more headaches in their 'labor of love' than must seem worthwhile at times. What a pedantic, tedious system we must do business through, and how it limits our efficacy and choice in buying great quality beer. That's why the 'tax thing' is such a sensitive point on top of it all.
Classy responses like Vlado's are the reason I read this board. Thanks for taking the time to respond and clear the air from some not so subtle shots at your products and services.
Let's see .... I think I've put my money where my mouth is over the past few years with private orders, and this thread has crystalized something for me ...
Peter, please take me off your fucking mailing lists - I've had enough of your low-class, passive-aggressive chickenshit posts here. Roland and Russell have proven they have more class and integrity than you could possibly dream of demonstrating. It's a shame this means I can never order Rochefort or any of the other fine beers you --- at least for NOW - are the agent for, but I couldn't respect myself giving you a shaved dime ever again.
And keep your whiny mouth shut in response too - if you ever step up or give me in-person attitude on those rare and hopefully infrequent opportunities where we meet, I WILL finish anything you attempt to start.
Do us all a favour - leave this forum, and hand your "business" off to someone who actually wants to serve customers. You are beyond tiresome, little man.
