Life Lessons learned at TBS

[Mr.X]

Unless they have changed it, I don't think there are any US brewers using the Canadian ISB. Most use lighter thinner "one way" glass. Anyone else know different?

they are pry off not twist off

My mistake then. Even so there has to be big money in accepting bottle returns, I mean it is not like the beer store or whoever have been doing it for all these years out of the goodness of their heart or because they are environmentally conscious. They do it because it is a money saver.

Which makes me wonder, why is the Beer Store the only place that takes back empties. Is this some sort of government regulation? I mean I know that the LCBO is not set up to handle empty returns, but why have no private business started up to take back bottles. I mean like I mentioned before in BC they have those types of businesses (although in BC there is also deposits on pop bottles and cans). In fact in BC those businesses are so common that it is apparently typical for the government run BCL stores to have a limit where they only take back a maximum of 24 bottles (since there are other alternatives where people can go, and to discourage people especially the homeless from coming into their nice stores with massive amounts of old, smelly cans and bottles).

I think the government gave the return business to TBS as a way to make its existence somewhat legitimate. I think if more Ontarians knew that TBS is a relic of a government granted monopoly that is now owned by foreign companies they may not be so supportive of it.

[Kel Varnsen]

they are pry off not twist off

My mistake then. Even so there has to be big money in accepting bottle returns, I mean it is not like the beer store or whoever have been doing it for all these years out of the goodness of their heart or because they are environmentally conscious. They do it because it is a money saver.

Which makes me wonder, why is the Beer Store the only place that takes back empties. Is this some sort of government regulation? I mean I know that the LCBO is not set up to handle empty returns, but why have no private business started up to take back bottles. I mean like I mentioned before in BC they have those types of businesses (although in BC there is also deposits on pop bottles and cans). In fact in BC those businesses are so common that it is apparently typical for the government run BCL stores to have a limit where they only take back a maximum of 24 bottles (since there are other alternatives where people can go, and to discourage people especially the homeless from coming into their nice stores with massive amounts of old, smelly cans and bottles).

I think the government gave the return business to TBS as a way to make its existence somewhat legitimate. I think if more Ontarians knew that TBS is a relic of a government granted monopoly that is now owned by foreign companies they may not be so supportive of it.

So then it is government regulation that makes it so that the only place you can return bottles to is the beer store? That seems weird to me.

And kind of off topic, I have only lived in Ontario since about 2003 and I have always wondered why there is no deposit on pop cans and bottles. I lived in BC prior to that and they had that system for as long as I can remember, as does NY from what I can tell based on my trips there. It seems to keep a lot or recycables from going in the garbage, and gives the homeless an easy way to make some cash.

[Mr.X]

I'm not 100% positive but I belive the "bag it back" program was started by the government and they mandated that TBS be the only place for empties returns. Anyone else remember?

I vagely recall being able to return pop cans for refund as a child here - not sure when that may have stopped.

[Belgian]

Yes there used to be bottle deposit. But then they got rid of re-usable glass pop bottles. I'm not sure but I think the soft drink industry lobbied strongly for one-way packaging. Saves 'em money not re-shipping, cleaning & inspecting all these heavy Coke bottles.

Also the current system can still make money recycling cans from our blue boxes. There is no reason to enforce deposit and return for those, if they can eliminate all that stupid busy work and still get most of them back without enforcing a deposit system. It's very economically viable to recycle aluminum into a new can, the material is something like one-twentieth the cost of virgin aluminum. Besides, people really do use their blue boxes now, to save garbage fees.

Plastic bottles are another story. They will be our legacy of giant forgotten landfills. There isn't much economic incentive to recycle those, so I matters a lot less than aluminum where these end up - hence why bother with any deposit on them? It doesn't make sense if we land-fill them.

This is all a major reason why I would accept most of my beers in aluminum. The question is, how many more beer cans are diverted thanks to the deposit program (VS blue-bin), how much is the extra cost of everyone's extra time, work & gasoline to arrange returns, and is that cost really worth it? Would blue-boxing the beer cans work just as well, even saving money, if we got rid of deposit on beer cans & counted on home recyclers to be responsible?

Seriously, are people really more likely to return cans to TBS for deposit than to put them in blue bins if there were no deposit? People who won't do one won't do the other so the deposit prevents nothing.

I bet removing the deposit on aluminum would get more people to buy beer in cans, since it's at a lower cost, and for the empties they can use the blue-bin right on their own property. Who needs the extra Beer Store trips (not carbon-efficient in the first place?)

[icemachine]

I can remember returning the 750mL coke bottles in the 80's and early 90's but the 2L PET bottles killed them I assume. I can remember returning empty beer bottles and cans to the local gas station as they were an authorized Brewers Retail depot location as our town only had an LCBO trailer and the nearest beer store was 40km away. When that gas station closed so did the depot, and now you see a heck of a lot more empties in the ditches around town.

[Kel Varnsen]

Yes there used to be bottle deposit. But then they got rid of re-usable glass pop bottles. I'm not sure but I think the soft drink industry lobbied strongly for one-way packaging. Saves 'em money not re-shipping, cleaning & inspecting all these heavy Coke bottles.

Also the current system can still make money recycling cans from our blue boxes. There is no reason to enforce deposit and return for those, if they can eliminate all that stupid busy work and still get most of them back without enforcing a deposit system. It's very economically viable to recycle aluminum into a new can, the material is something like one-twentieth the cost of virgin aluminum. Besides, people really do use their blue boxes now, to save garbage fees.

Plastic bottles are another story. They will be our legacy of giant forgotten landfills. There isn't much economic incentive to recycle those, so I matters a lot less than aluminum where these end up - hence why bother with any deposit on them? It doesn't make sense if we land-fill them.

This is all a major reason why I would accept most of my beers in aluminum. The question is, how many more beer cans are diverted thanks to the deposit program (VS blue-bin), how much is the extra cost of everyone's extra time, work & gasoline to arrange returns, and is that cost really worth it? Would blue-boxing the beer cans work just as well, even saving money, if we got rid of deposit on beer cans & counted on home recyclers to be responsible?

Seriously, are people really more likely to return cans to TBS for deposit than to put them in blue bins if there were no deposit? People who won't do one won't do the other so the deposit prevents nothing.

I bet removing the deposit on aluminum would get more people to buy beer in cans, since it's at a lower cost, and for the empties they can use the blue-bin right on their own property. Who needs the extra Beer Store trips (not carbon-efficient in the first place?)

I don't know, I think the deposit program works better then you might think. I mean sure if someone isn't going to take their cans back to get the 5 cent deposit aren't probably going to put them in their blue box. But when the can is worth money there is going to be someone who is motivated to take it back. I mean sure it is easy to throw can in your blue box at home, but if they are worth no money and you are out somewhere like at a park or driving down the road or something, it is way more convenient to throw the can in the trash or just litter. You would be surprised how in BC you never see aluminum cans lying by the side of the road or in a park, or even in public trash bins, since the homeless as well as garbage collectors realize that those things are worth money and make sure they are separated and take them back. If they are not worth any money, no one has any motivation to do that and they become more litter. Not to mention if people are drinking out of them away from there house it is more motivation for them to take them home.

[JerCraigs]

Yes there used to be bottle deposit. But then they got rid of re-usable glass pop bottles. I'm not sure but I think the soft drink industry lobbied strongly for one-way packaging. Saves 'em money not re-shipping, cleaning & inspecting all these heavy Coke bottles.

In markets where the producers pay the costs rather than taxpayer subsidized blue box programs most soda is sold in reusable bottles. Mexico for example apparently has reusable 2L PET bottles, which are the best of both worlds - light for shipping but also reusable.

TBS has a crazy high return rate for bottles, damn near 100% I think, and a very high recycling rate for other packaging materials as well.


Most studies have shown that reusable bottles are more environmentally friendly (or at least the least energy intensive). The catch is that once glass bottles are travelling more than a certain distance, the transportation energy outweighs the savings from reuse.

[Belgian]

I don't know, I think the deposit program works better then you might think. I mean sure if someone isn't going to take their cans back to get the 5 cent deposit aren't probably going to put them in their blue box. But when the can is worth money there is going to be someone who is motivated to take it back. I mean sure it is easy to throw can in your blue box at home, but if they are worth no money and you are out somewhere like at a park or driving down the road or something, it is way more convenient to throw the can in the trash or just litter. You would be surprised how in BC you never see aluminum cans lying by the side of the road or in a park, or even in public trash bins, since the homeless as well as garbage collectors realize that those things are worth money and make sure they are separated and take them back. If they are not worth any money, no one has any motivation to do that and they become more litter. Not to mention if people are drinking out of them away from there house it is more motivation for them to take them home.

Hmm I could see that side of it as well.

It makes the argument that homeless & garbage collectors actually vaccuum up society's mess when society is lazy about aluminum. Same assumption that speed bumps - not accountable driving habits - make roads safer.

The only other 'motivation' to not treat cans like trash is a public sense of pride, because how much harder is it to blue-box something than to trash it.
Kind of a shame we have to assume the worst rather than campaign for people's best behavior (it would save a lot of wasted gasoline and effort if we could just blue-box all our aluminumn for recycling.)

[Ukie]

Saw the Wells IPA 2L PET bottle today, did a double take. I don't know if thats an answer or not but certainly if my wife cuts me down to 1 a day during the week it is.

[cattersley]

I have had many run-ins at my local beer store(s), more then once a manager came out to give me a tongue lashing. Once about since that I didn't properly sort them (bottles colours) and I was impeding the flow, Another time when I short changed from what I had counted to be about 5$. I told the clerk more then once I had counted all the empties before coming and it was not my fault that they had miscounted. The managers reply was well if I had counted them all to begin with, why didn't I give them my count when they started.... Needless to say, I give them the exact number of all containers now, and I have the ball park number in my head of the when entering. I would say 95% the attitude at the beer store is still a friendly one, but like always once in a while you get the entitled feeling few that act like complete jerks, and sully your feelings as a whole for the beer store. Remember, the beer store might be a private run company serving the Ontario beer industry, they are still a business, and sometimes every business needs a reminder from time to time they are serving a customer base which they rely on to pay there salaries, and if they make enough people made, there is home brewing, u-brews, the lcbo, direct buying, and buying out of province.

In conclusion, the beer store and lcbo in my long running opinion should be gutted, dismantled, and deregulation with a free market system with no man min prices should be set in place.

[Belgian]

Remember, the beer store might be a private run company serving the Ontario beer industry, they are still a business, and sometimes every business needs a reminder from time to time they are serving a customer base which they rely on to pay there salaries, and if they make enough people mad, there is home brewing, u-brews, the lcbo, direct buying, and buying out of province.

Right, except most of the customer base they sell to isn't going out of their way to replace the overpriced 'Top Ten fizz water they usually buy.

TBS is not great, but it is everywhere & requires no special effort. They can't lose even when they are jerks to customers.