New York Notes

[G.M. Gillman]

Back in the city here, some observations. Although I didn't get to many, I did hit a representative number of beer outlets. I found the usual inconsistencies, similar to back home. Sometimes the lines didn't seem pristine, sometimes a beer was past it, and all the imports I ordered seemed slightly defective. Eg. in one place, Sierra Nevada Red IPA, outstanding in the bottle, was somewhat degraded in taste. It was fresh, but I think the lines could have been cleaner. A famous German lager tasted right but had no carbonation. Some beers as always seemed amateurishly made, even from some industry veterans. Best beers I had were said Red IPA in bottle, quite close to Fuller ESB in London, a cask saison at Biererria at Eataly, Barrier cream ale at Rattle n Hum and one or two pumpkin beers. I didn't see anything that trumped what we have in Toronto except some imports but again their condition for the ones I had wasn't so great. Urquell is supposed to be coming in to the US under a fast refrigerated plan but I thought the draft we get at home is much better than here. And I know the original from Prague taverns.

Withal I wish more attention was given to serving condition.

Gary

[G.M. Gillman]

Some bottled beer notes, tasted in the room.

Boris the Spider Imperial Stout. Smoky, bitter, harsh. Possibly needing bottle age to meld.

Ballantine XXX. A sentimental favourite. Tasted from a bomber. Full tasting, quite bitter, some adjunct but all in all a good traditional taste, better than in recent years. Better too, taking all with all, than most craft beers I tasted on this trip.

Michelob Original Lager. Light, too crisp, disappointing.

Victory Fest Beer. Had it on draft too. Not for me, odd dryish malt flavour.

Long Trail ..... Can't recall exact name, a seasonal darkish Octoberfest style. Not bad, a little light, somewhat acid.

Sierra Nevada Red IPA. Glowing red colour. Deep clean malt taste, complex hopping as for the regular SNPA but more bitter. Really fine, an old English mild style IMO, way better than anything else I had on this trip.

[G.M. Gillman]

A further set of impressions, focused on Barrier Brewing: This outfit started nano in Oceanside (remote Long Island location), and has grown but is still fairly small. Having enjoyed their beers on previous trips, I seek them out.

On this trip, on two occasions a Barrier beer (pale ale styles) was listed on the board but had just sold out - another sign for me that the beers are tops. The only time I saw one still available, apart a Belgian-style pale I didn't feel like trying at the moment, was a cream ale at Rattle 'n Hum, so I went for it. What a great beer! It just tasted good, an appetizing flavour with great drinkability. I could taste some corn but it tasted good, not acidic or starchy as in most mass market beers I've had. I wonder if they are using a heirloom corn or processing it in a way to retain some great flavour. But all this to say that it gave me some new insight on use of adjunct and its historical place in American brewing. The beer was like a more artisan, natural version of the Ballantine XXX mentioned earlier (quite worthy unto itself).

While normally I wouldn't order a cream ale, this essay shows that American industrial brewing styles can do great in the hands of brewing artists.

Barrier is one to watch, IMO.

Gary

[cratez]

Well, if there's one thing I've learned in 3 1/2 years on Bar Towel, it's that I rarely agree with Gary on anything, whether it be impressions of beers, pub reviews, or thoughts on North American beer culture in general. But that's the beauty of this forum.

In my tour of the Brooklyn and Manhattan beer spots, none of the draughts or casks I had were in poor condition. The two that disappointed (Kelso IPA & Port Jeff Fresh Hop) were due to lack of flavour rather than deficiencies in how they were kept and served. The cask pints that I quaffed were in comparable shape to the better real ales served at C'est What, barVolo, etc.

On this trip the only import draughts that I sampled were Ayinger Oktober Fest-Märzen, Weihenstephaner Oktoberfestbier, and a Double IPA from Spain, primarily because I was more interested in the domestic micros on offer. Still, the latter two were outstanding while the Ayinger left something to be desired. Whether that was due to a dirty line or faulty keg, I don't know.

The Victory Festbier did a lot for me with its rich caramelly-bread crusty flavours, light fruity sweetness, and full body. I agree on the quality of the Flipside Red though it struck me as a classic hoppy U.S. Amber. Serving type and freshness matter, of course.

Regarding selection, it’s true that T.O.'s best pubs have beer menus that rival NYC's choicest beer bars, particularly in terms of size and, to a lesser extent, style variation. And that’s AWESOME to see. However, when travelling in the States I’m mostly interested in trying “different” beers that aren’t available at home, especially beers that are ranked as top examples of their style. In this area the King Titus, Allagash Black, Mayflower Porter, Sixpoint Crisp, GL Oktoberfest, 2X Rye and others delivered. I also thought Barcade's selection on a non-descript Monday resembled the average event lineup here.

Some additional observations:

- NY's liquor laws remain much more advanced than Ontario's, and this in turn affects the nature of their beer scene and the experience one has while visiting the state. Examples abound: since beer-to-go is permitted at bars, I was able to purchase an $8 bomber of Hop Stoopid to enjoy at our room. The ability of pubs to serve liquor until 4am came in handy when we got a late start to our day mid-trip. The craft beer growler fill station at Chelsea Market is something you just don't see at St. Lawrence or Toronto's flea markets. And because grocery stores can sell liquor, I was able to buy a fresh sixer of Flower Power and browse the impressive selection at Whole Foods Tribeca while grabbing some lunch there.

- The Empire State Building is the definition of a mainstream tourist trap, and yet it has a beautiful brewpub (Heartland) with tasty fare and above average beers. I can't think of a local equivalent.

- None of this means Toronto's beer scene is vastly inferior to New York's, or the U.S. for that matter. Everyone agrees we have a lot to be proud of. In the last five years our brewers, publicans, and importers have done a formidable job of making up "lost ground" within a highly flawed liquor system. Places like Bar Hop, beerbistro, Indie Alehouse, and Bellwood's rival America's best beer spots, and Great Lakes and Amsterdam continue to amaze me. But we still have a ways to go in brewing top-of-style beers, expanding access to imports, and bringing our liquor laws into the 21st century. Recent developments suggest we'll get there sooner than later.

[nickw]

from your linked-to post in the What're You Drinking thread:

Anyone else find Spuyten to be a ridiculously obnoxious, expensive, and overrated hipster den from hell? By contrast the Barcade folks were much more down to earth and the tap list was very diverse. Had a delicious sour stout, a pale smoked wheat, and a cucumber-infused blonde while blasting away outlaws with a sawed-off shotgun. A great escape from the suffocating pretension of the other place and an awesome end to our vacation.

Last summer, we stayed between Spuyten and Barcade. I didn't find Spuyten to be that, but I also spent a lot of my time in Brooklyn last summer exploring the emerging/emerged bar (and not necessarily beer) scene in Williamsburg and Bushwick, so it was par for the course in terms of style and not unwelcome They weren't particularly obnoxious when we were there, and I remember the prices being a bit more than other Brooklyn bars, but not bad compared to a few Manhattan places or Volo here.

Barcade is always great, however. One of my all-time favourite bars.

[lister]

Barcade is always great, however. One of my all-time favourite bars.

We haven't been to Barcade yet due to extra participants involved in our trips. For our next NYC trip it'll be just me and the GF and Barcade is on the itinerary!

[cratez]

Another point, RE: the freshness and handling of import draughts in NY/U.S. bars. Although I wasn't able to make it there, I find it impossible to believe that the condition of the import taps at Tørst (RB: 99, BA: 99) is anything short of exceptional. As well, if you compare their lineup to our top Euro draught bar (Monk's Table), the selection at Monk's seems quaint. These things matter when drawing conclusions about the respective beer scenes and whether or not the Yanks know their imports.

Barcade is always great, however. One of my all-time favourite bars.

We haven't been to Barcade yet due to extra participants involved in our trips. For our next NYC trip it'll be just me and the GF and Barcade is on the itinerary!

It was definitely one of the highlights of our trip. Really fun spot with a stunning tap list, great games, and solid wine options for my oenophile GF.

[Craig]

Barcade is always great, however. One of my all-time favourite bars.

We haven't been to Barcade yet due to extra participants involved in our trips. For our next NYC trip it'll be just me and the GF and Barcade is on the itinerary!

I went to the barcade in Philly for (part of) my bachelor party. It was so much fun and as an added perk, the cute blonde bartender was a homesick Canadian who bought me a round of their nicest bourbon.

Someone should open a Barcade in Toronto. It would kill somewhere in the West End. Ossignton maybe?

[lister]

Someone should open a Barcade in Toronto. It would kill somewhere in the West End. Ossignton maybe?

Get Well on Dundas just west of Ossington has some old school video games. Free. I don't know how it compares to Barcade.

[jrenihan]

Someone should open a Barcade in Toronto. It would kill somewhere in the West End. Ossignton maybe?

Get Well on Dundas just west of Ossington has some old school video games. Free. I don't know how it compares to Barcade.

Get Well is a nice spot, but it does not compare to Barcade, unfortunately- in beer or games.
Ren

[JerCraigs]

Last summer, we stayed between Spuyten and Barcade.

Would you recommend the place? How did you find it for getting in and out of Manhattan (assuming you went)?

[G.M. Gillman]

Didn't get to Torst unfortunately, I did visit Heartland at Empire State though. In the past I've been generally underwhelmed with its beers. They are good enough, and clearly Heartland is a pioneer deserving of respect, but e.g., the pumpkin beer and dark Saison I tried on this occasion didn't impress. (Not the condition but just the taste). It's true that they have numerous outlets now so more people including travelers are exposed to craft beer than probably is the case here on average.

As an example of, IMO again, an import in poor condition, an HB marzen (fest) was offered from the wooden barrel at Rattle 'n Hum - I didn't even see that at the HB outlet itself in Manhattan - but it came dead flat. Tasted good, but completely flat. That didn't seem right. The dunkel at HB's outlet seemed a touch vinegary and I didn't finish it after a swallow.

Of course too this is luck of the draw and had I had a different import selection there or elsewhere it might have been much better, sure, but that wasn't my experience.

Certainly one can't gainsay the abundant choice of out of state beers there. That doesn't compare to here due to the regulatory situation. But the actual styles available at Gingerman, Blind Tiger, Flatiron Tavern I think it's called on 26th (where the beers are from Greenpoint only in Brooklyn), Pony Bar, seemed well within what we get in downtown TO.

Hours do generally seem favourable there and certainly yes on growlers and that side. But e.g., - not that I cared, but I noticed - Birreria wouldn't serve a drink until noon on Sunday. Yet, the bar at Newark airport was functioning early in the morning the next day. They have quirks there too..

Inevitably on anyone's trip they don't see everything and all this is a matter of opinion and perspective, to be sure. All that said, once again I feel that in downtown Toronto we have as good as the range you will find there, sometimes better. The choice of porter and stout (draft) in the particular group of pubs I visited seemed quite limited, and what was there was often the dry Irish or milk stout styles, which I don't seek out. Here we have often many interesting porters and stouts and numerous Imperials/strong stouts of different flavours.

Gary

[Belgian]

Anyone else find Spuyten to be a ridiculously obnoxious, expensive, and overrated hipster den from hell? By contrast the Barcade folks were much more down to earth...

I didn't find Spuyten to be that, but I also spent a lot of my time in Brooklyn last summer exploring...
Barcade is always great, however. One of my all-time favourite bars.

Haha. Me either, a place can have a different style and it doesn't get my goat quite so badly. Spuyten is just novel tiny and expensive.

I would also like to spend more time exploring around Williamsburg, and Barcade sounds right up my alley. I love NYC exactly for its diversity.

I've also heard soul-wrenching, horrified comments about dba bar in the Bowery, and I never had a bad time there over a number of visits.

[nickw]

Last summer, we stayed between Spuyten and Barcade.

Would you recommend the place? How did you find it for getting in and out of Manhattan (assuming you went)?

It was an AirBnB place before the City started making news about potentially cracking down on such rentals (not sure where they're at with regard to actually limiting AirBnB -- I can't imagine it's disappeared!)

In a city like NY, I much prefer getting out of areas with high concentrations of hotels and into the neighbourhoods a bit more, and AirBnB has proven to be a great option (not to mention the relative cheapness of it -- $120/night for two of us for a very large and clean loft apartment with full kitchen, outdoor space...)

The location was great -- easy walking distance (20 minutes or less) to beer destinations like Barcade, Spuyten Duyvil, Torst (which hadn't opened when I was there last), Brouwerij Lane, Bruekelen Bier Merchants, Beer Boutique, Mugs...

The L-Train more or less cuts between all those destinations, so getting into Manhattan is very easy -- 10-15ish minutes to Union Square Station at 14th St and Broadway. My trips to NY more or less always revolve around the L-Train... luckily I haven't come up against one of the rather disruptive "weekend trains on the L-line are cancelled due to track maintenance" (as is going on right now until the end of October), so be sure to check upcoming MTA service advisories if the weekend is going to be a time when you want to leave Brooklyn (which, more and more, you don't need to! )

[cratez]

I did visit Heartland at Empire State though. In the past I've been generally underwhelmed with its beers. They are good enough, and clearly Heartland is a pioneer deserving of respect, but e.g., the pumpkin beer and dark Saison I tried on this occasion didn't impress (not the condition just the taste). It's true that they have numerous outlets now so more people including travelers are exposed to craft beer than probably is the case here.

I only tried two of their beers - a full pint of the Indiana Pale Ale and a sample of the Oatmeal Stout - so I'm no expert on their lineup, but both beers were solid and the brewery struck me as an Americanized version of Granite. For local comparison, then, it'd be like if Granite Brewery was inside the CN Tower. Needless to say you don't see that here, and to me the Empire State Heartland is yet another example of how craft beer is firmly ingrained in U.S. culture.

As an example of, IMO again, an import in poor condition, an HB marzen (fest) was offered from the wooden barrel at Rattle 'n Hum - I didn't even see that at the HB outlet itself in Manhattan - but it came dead flat. Tasted good, but completely flat. That didn't seem right. The dunkel at HB's outlet seemed a touch vinegary and I didn't finish it after a swallow.

That's unfortunate to hear. I rarely ever experience these types of disasters in stateside pubs and it leads me to wonder if you have exceptionally bad luck.

Certainly one can't gainsay the abundant choice of out-of-state beers there. That doesn't compare to here due to the regulatory situation.

This is a major substantive difference that just can't be overlooked when comparing the two beer scenes. Thanks to the wide availability of foreign and out-of-state draughts, I was able to try eight beers that are ranked as top examples of their style on RB and BA (I'm including Boston as the selection in both cities was similar). All minus the Ayinger met my expectations. That's one reason why, for me anyway, a trip to a top-rated beer bar in a large U.S. city is usually more rewarding than an analogous night out here. Thankfully the rapidly improving quality and diversity of our local offerings is beginning to compensate for this massive discrepancy (see my comments below).

Once again I feel that in downtown Toronto we have as good as the range you will find there, sometimes better. The choice of porter and stout (draft) in the particular group of pubs I visited seemed quite limited, and what was there was often the dry Irish or milk stout styles, which I don't seek out. Here we have often many interesting porters and stouts and numerous Imperials/strong stouts of different flavours.

On the basic premise that the draught and one-off beers from Toronto's best breweries are as good or better than the regular and seasonal offerings from Brooklyn, Sixpoint, Ommegang, and others, I agree with you. Granted, Karma Citra and RoboHop aren't perennials for Great Lakes in the way that Bengali Tiger and Resin are part of Sixpoint's core tap and bottle lineup; Amsterdam Fracture isn't available on tap across Ontario like Brooklyn Blast is in NY state; and we don't have an all-Belgian brewery in this province, but I believe we'll progress in these areas soon.

Regarding the porter and stout selection, four of the best beers that I sampled on this trip fell under those categories, so the lack of options wasn't evident to me.

I'll end by saying that your intransigence on this issue is intriguing. Your general indifference to beers made and served in what many beer enthusiasts consider to be the world's leading craft beer nation no doubt puts you in the minority view, though naturally you're entitled to your opinion. As always we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree, and I'm satisfied that the examples I've provided adequately illustrate my perspective.