Starting a revolution

[Jon Walker]

Okay, there's been so much talk on Bartowel over the years about what's wrong with the Ontario brewing/distribution/retail system we currently have. My suggestion is we begin to compile a list of recommendations we'd like to see implimented in order to change the situation that we all complain about. I'm going to start with a few ideas to discuss, I'd be curious to hear yours. Perhaps one day we could actually have a "platform" to put forward that was actionable and precise rather than just fanciful and vague.

1) Reduce or eliminate punitive legislation and taxation that decreases profitability of micro brewers.

2) Reduce or eliminate legislation protecting macro brewers. (I don't know the specific laws that relate to either 1 or 2, others might want to be more specific).

3) Allow private retail stores to sell liquor and beer without having to be tied to the LCBO. (would that mean eliminating the LCBO, allowing private business to compete with it, privatize it...?)

4) Remove the Beer Store from the clutches of Molson's, Labatts and Sleeman's. (Again, privatize, eliminate, a two tiered system?)

5) Remove the Beer Store's monopoly on kegged beer importation.

Any thoughts on these or others I may have over looked?

[detritus]

1) Reduce or eliminate punitive legislation and taxation that decreases profitability of micro brewers.
2) Reduce or eliminate legislation protecting macro brewers. (I don't know the specific laws that relate to either 1 or 2, others might want to be more specific).

I don't know what these are either. My guess is that if any such laws exist, they'd be more of #2 than #1.

3) Allow private retail stores to sell liquor and beer without having to be tied to the LCBO. (would that mean eliminating the LCBO, allowing private business to compete with it, privatize it...?)

Implementation of some or all of the Beverage Alcohol System Review Panel's Strategy for Transforming Ontario's Beverage Alcohol System would go a long way towards this. Bonus: the government already paid for the study!

4) Remove the Beer Store from the clutches of Molson's, Labatts and Sleeman's. (Again, privatize, eliminate, a two tiered system?)
5) Remove the Beer Store's monopoly on kegged beer importation.

Removing the monopoly would be a good start. There are fewer issues with the big brewers owning retail and distribution channels if other people can own run competing businesses.

[GregClow]

3) Allow private retail stores to sell liquor and beer without having to be tied to the LCBO. (would that mean eliminating the LCBO, allowing private business to compete with it, privatize it...?)

I would be wary of complete LCBO elimination or privatization, as I could imagine a situation where the government would sell off the whole kit & caboodle to a company like Loblaws to continue to operate as a monopoly. Which could in turn lead to even worse selection and service than we have now.

Not the mention that the only Ontario government in recent memory that seemed to have any interest in selling off the LCBO was the Eves government, and even then I think it was mostly hot air from Flaherty.

A more feasible scenario, and one that would accomplish a lot of what we want to see happen, would be the creation of a "two-tier" model like they have in Nova Scotia. They could keep the LCBO in place to serve as a retail outlet throughout the province, but also allow for a limited number of private outlets with more specialized, higher-end inventory in places that could support such stores.

The big question would be whether or not such stores would have to go through the LCBO wholesaling/warehouse system. If so, it wouldn't completely solve the problems, unless the LCBO would be willing to cut back on the red tape and hassles that are currently preventing some suppliers from wanting to deal with them.

[Jon Walker]

BC currently have such a two tiered system but it seems that most importation does indeed still go through the provincial setup. Private stores have popped up in many neighborhoods, several of these (that I noticed) used to be BC liquor stores. However all of the inventory appears to be the same products available at the government stores and all the products are marked up by 10-20%.

Having said that there appears to be some exception when it comes to wine. Outfits like Liberty Wine Merchants have outlets throughout the lower mainland, have some overlap with the government stores but then also have wines not available elsewhere. Does this mean that private stores COULD import specialty beers not on the provincial store's list? No idea.

[SteelbackGuy]

I like some of the ideas, but I won't speak to even the two-tier system because I work for the board,have no successor rights, and like my job thank you very much.

[viggo]

I like some of the ideas, but I won't speak to even the two-tier system because I work for the board,have no successor rights, and like my job thank you very much.

Wow, why are you on Bar Towel if you don't want to see any progression of Ontario brewing? It's never going to get any better under this current system. Pretty weak.

[JerCraigs]

I like some of the ideas, but I won't speak to even the two-tier system because I work for the board,have no successor rights, and like my job thank you very much.

Wow, why are you on Bar Towel if you don't want to see any progression of Ontario brewing? It's never going to get any better under this current system. Pretty weak.

Voicing opinions against your employer in a public forum is generally a bad call, which I expect is his point.


I agree with Greg's point about exercising some caution regarding complete elimination/transfer of the LCBO/Beer Store system.

I actualyl have more of a problem with TBS ownership now that they are not even canadian companies! That is crazy!

Personally I think that the best solution is for some stores to be allowed to be opened as private stores, free to sell what they wish, without being encumbered by the LCBO beuracracy. Ie. If I want to get my grubby little hands on a case of Stone/Alesmith/Three Floyds however I can legally do so, and charge whatever that costs. Go for it.

The market will dictate what gets bought and what doesn't rather than LCBO red tape, minimum ordering levels (other than those imposed by the brewery) etc.

That said, realistically there would be one or two stores like this in Toronto and very few elsewhere because the market for that is still smallish.

[viggo]

They're unionized, I don't think he has much to worry about. Ontario needs a two-tier system, and I think the demand here is enough that we could get decent prices.

[detritus]

They're unionized, I don't think he has much to worry about. Ontario needs a two-tier system, and I think the demand here is enough that we could get decent prices.

While they might be unionized, that probably wouldn't help them much if the entire system got decommissioned - they're just all be laid off in order of seniority.

Unions are good - but they're not that good. Unionized workers can still be laid off.

[viggo]

Great, how can we preach about good beer but defend the system thats keeps it out of this province? If the LCBO is privatized and half of them get laid off, I say tough luck.

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

Great, how can we preach about good beer but defend the system thats keeps it out of this province? If the LCBO is privatized and half of them get laid off, I say tough luck.

100% agreed. You can't simultaneously defend the system while advocating for its change. Just like you can't simultaneously defend shit beer while trying to spread the word about good beer.

[detritus]

Great, how can we preach about good beer but defend the system thats keeps it out of this province? If the LCBO is privatized and half of them get laid off, I say tough luck.

100% agreed. You can't simultaneously defend the system while advocating for its change. Just like you can't simultaneously defend shit beer while trying to spread the word about good beer.

Sure you can - the LCBO does some things very well (distribution to less populated areas for one thing). There's nothing wrong with arguing that a good solution would be a modification of the current system rather than a wholesale replacement.

-Josh

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

Great, how can we preach about good beer but defend the system thats keeps it out of this province? If the LCBO is privatized and half of them get laid off, I say tough luck.

100% agreed. You can't simultaneously defend the system while advocating for its change. Just like you can't simultaneously defend shit beer while trying to spread the word about good beer.

Sure you can - the LCBO does some things very well (distribution to less populated areas for one thing). There's nothing wrong with arguing that a good solution would be a modification of the current system rather than a wholesale replacement.

-Josh

The current system needs so much "modification" to make it a good system that it would pretty much be an entirely new entity.

Replacing the current system totally is the best idea. The government run liquor monoply has to be 100% scrapped. Too bad it will never happen, seeing as most Ontarians don't care and are perfectly happy to pour swill down their gullets while eating KD with ketchup and sitting in their IKEA chairs.

[Tapsucker]

If, for a moment, we consider the LCBO part of our public infrastructure, the perspective changes a bit. Public infrastructure exists for several reasons, a few of which are:
1 - Provide essential services
2 - Create an environment conducive to business (i.e. roads are good for the economy)
3 - Support a pubic policy agenda (i.e. try and control underage drinking, encourage recycling)
4 - Raise the quality of life for the community

The LCBO manages good and bad on the simple samples above.

1 - John Graves Simcoe considered beer an essential service. Local brewing was strategically important to resisting the spell of imported American liquor and the possible influence on the loyalties of Upper Canada's subjects. The LCBO is basically an importer. Local breweries and wineries are pathetically supported considering we are all shareholders in this enterprise. On the other hand, I'm sure many of you will consider access to a favourite Belgian ale an essential service - damn what spell have you come under?

2. The LCBO as a distributor can create a great level playing field for brewers, vintners and distillers. Not all can afford their own distribution. Still, the LCBO chooses to sell premium shelf space and showcase major vendors at the expense of others. I'd say they are not creating a marketplace that benefits the Ontario economy, but they could be.

3. Other than the current joke of outsourcing the new collection process to molbats, the LCBO has a pretty good record on public policy. After all they began as a public policy. They had a chance to come up with better environmental behaviour but mysteriously gave into the Tetra Pak and Beer Store lobby.

4. While alcohol has many negative impacts on society, it is also a luxury, in many cases an art form, and a part of social process. General availability of product and quality control could be seen as benefits to many, especially in smaller communities. On the other hand, the opportunity to offer even better quality products is being squandered. Excellence has been missed.


In conclusion, I think we could live with the LCBO if it were tuned up and more accountable to us. If not, some private competition might wake them up.

On the other hand, I cannot see a single benefit or rational behind the Beer Store's (if one can really call them that) continued monopoly. They serve none of the above agendas an only serve to create profits for foreign multinationals. At the very least, other Ontario brewers should be allowed to band together and set up competing outlets.

[detritus]

The current system needs so much "modification" to make it a good system that it would pretty much be an entirely new entity.

Replacing the current system totally is the best idea. The government run liquor monoply has to be 100% scrapped.

Easy for you to say - tell it to the guy in northern Ontario who currently has access to Sinha Stout, Fuller's Porter, etc.

-Josh