Web site that I think was put up last week by various groups in the entertainment, restaurant, and brewing industries to fight the proposed new City of Toronto drink tax.
http://www.nodrinktax.ca/
You can send an automated message from there to the Mayor, Budget Chief, and various City Councillors.
(note: one of the Councillors replied, and I actually noticed that the automated e-mail sent to them is fairly brief and non-descriptive, so you may want to send your own personally written e-mail to the recipient of choice with your own personal thoughts and details as to why the new drink tax is a bad idea).
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We have a trivia question in order to register to prevent bots. If you have any issues with answering, contact us at cass@bartowel.com for help.
Introducing Light Mode! If you would like a Bar Towel social experience that isn't the traditional blue, you can now select Light Mode. Go to the User Control Panel and then Board Preferences, and select "Day Drinking" (Light Mode) from the My Board Style drop-down menu. You can always switch back to "Night Drinking" (Dark Mode). Enjoy!
No Toronto drink tax website
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Uncle Bobby
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: East End Toronto
- Contact:
Crawler,
Although I agree that the last thing we need is another drink tax (or tax of any description for that matter, particularly one that taxes low income users at the same flat rate as high income users), this effort is doomed to failing in its stated goal if the only body it addresses is Toronto City Council. These automated messages should be sent to the province, too.
The province of Ontario is short-changing the City both in term of its share of cash and in terms of revenue-generating options. The province does not even contribute its share of money for provincially mandated programmes administered by the city. So let's be absolutely clear: Ontario does not even obey its own laws when paying its share of programmes that it creates. And the City has to pick up the difference as well as paying its own share.
And the options available to the city for generating revenue, through taxes or otherwise, under the new City of Toronto Act are a "poisoned chalice": they are all bound to be unpopular and would likely sink the current council. I think City Council is in a position now of evaluating the least unpopular options.
However if you just want to have a good crab about the NDP, or the "socialists", or David Miller personally, go ahead. But you won't be helping Toronto overcome any of its many fiscal problems.
And I guess it was completely coincidental that the creators of this website used the same colours as the Mayor's campaign materials. No doubt who they are attacking, eh?
Of course if the province and the feds wanted to treat Toronto and the cities like a mature level of government, then they should give them the constitutional authority to levy an income tax or a sales tax like they do in the U.S. and numerous other industrialized jurisdictions around the world. And we could elect or unelect city council on that basis.
Or the feds and province could just give us back Toronto's multi-billion dollar annual contribution to confederation. Then there's no need to tax beer...again.
If you want to have a conversation about tax policy, that's fine. I think it's a worthy topic. However you should be careful about promoting a skewed partisan political agenda which does take into account a clear and comprehensive view of the issues.
-Uncle Bobby
Although I agree that the last thing we need is another drink tax (or tax of any description for that matter, particularly one that taxes low income users at the same flat rate as high income users), this effort is doomed to failing in its stated goal if the only body it addresses is Toronto City Council. These automated messages should be sent to the province, too.
The province of Ontario is short-changing the City both in term of its share of cash and in terms of revenue-generating options. The province does not even contribute its share of money for provincially mandated programmes administered by the city. So let's be absolutely clear: Ontario does not even obey its own laws when paying its share of programmes that it creates. And the City has to pick up the difference as well as paying its own share.
And the options available to the city for generating revenue, through taxes or otherwise, under the new City of Toronto Act are a "poisoned chalice": they are all bound to be unpopular and would likely sink the current council. I think City Council is in a position now of evaluating the least unpopular options.
However if you just want to have a good crab about the NDP, or the "socialists", or David Miller personally, go ahead. But you won't be helping Toronto overcome any of its many fiscal problems.
And I guess it was completely coincidental that the creators of this website used the same colours as the Mayor's campaign materials. No doubt who they are attacking, eh?
Of course if the province and the feds wanted to treat Toronto and the cities like a mature level of government, then they should give them the constitutional authority to levy an income tax or a sales tax like they do in the U.S. and numerous other industrialized jurisdictions around the world. And we could elect or unelect city council on that basis.
Or the feds and province could just give us back Toronto's multi-billion dollar annual contribution to confederation. Then there's no need to tax beer...again.
If you want to have a conversation about tax policy, that's fine. I think it's a worthy topic. However you should be careful about promoting a skewed partisan political agenda which does take into account a clear and comprehensive view of the issues.
-Uncle Bobby
Last edited by Uncle Bobby on Thu May 31, 2007 10:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"It's ma-a-a-gic!"
"It's ma-a-a-gic!"
I wonder why the folks behind this website seem to be afraid to identify themselves? It says "Brought to you by the people who produce and serve you beer, wine and spirits in the City of Toronto", yet I don't see any actual bars, restaurants, breweries, wineries, etc. listed as being involved.
The closest is a link to the Ontario Restaurant Hotel & Motel Association website - but that's listed under a "links you might be interested in" heading, not a "these are the people behind this website" heading.
I even did a whois search on the domain, and found that the contact info was hidden by privacy.ca.
This secrecy certainly doesn't inspire me to want to enter my name, address and email onto the site, that's for sure.
The closest is a link to the Ontario Restaurant Hotel & Motel Association website - but that's listed under a "links you might be interested in" heading, not a "these are the people behind this website" heading.
I even did a whois search on the domain, and found that the contact info was hidden by privacy.ca.
This secrecy certainly doesn't inspire me to want to enter my name, address and email onto the site, that's for sure.
If you link through Media Room to the Toronto Sun articles (by both Zen Ruryk and Linda Leatherdale), it explains there that the Coalition who put the Web site up includes:
Wine Council of Ontario
Spirits Canada
Ontario Restaurant, Hotel, and Motel Association
Ontario Craft Brewers
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 12R24 (Beer Store workers)
You're right though, they should explicitly put it right onto the Web site.
I also saw flyers being handed out at a beer store downtown promoting the Web site.
I don't oppose the theory of giving municipal govts. the right to collect income or sales tax, but before the feds or province gave the city that right, they would need to vacate some of their own tax-collecting room to ensure that individuals or corporations don't have to pay any more in total taxes than they do now. And there'd have to be a range cap, similar to what Maryland did in that state when they gave cities and counties there that right (i.e. they lowered their rates by an amount and gave the lower tiers the right to impose a rate between x and y).
Wine Council of Ontario
Spirits Canada
Ontario Restaurant, Hotel, and Motel Association
Ontario Craft Brewers
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 12R24 (Beer Store workers)
You're right though, they should explicitly put it right onto the Web site.
I also saw flyers being handed out at a beer store downtown promoting the Web site.
I don't oppose the theory of giving municipal govts. the right to collect income or sales tax, but before the feds or province gave the city that right, they would need to vacate some of their own tax-collecting room to ensure that individuals or corporations don't have to pay any more in total taxes than they do now. And there'd have to be a range cap, similar to what Maryland did in that state when they gave cities and counties there that right (i.e. they lowered their rates by an amount and gave the lower tiers the right to impose a rate between x and y).
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BeerMonger
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 4:04 pm
Well I suspect that no-one is anxious to identify themselves or their business due to fears of retribution...visits by the local building inspector or the like. I am not saying that would happen but I'm sure there are those out there who think it might. There are enough rules and regulations out there that even the most law abiding establishments are likely to be found in contravention of something...or maybe their patio extension will be refused or their extended hours application.
Don't worry Uncle Bobby I have no intention of slamming His Blondness or the rest of his troop but I do think its high time that a City Auditor report on City waste a la the Federal Auditor...someone who has no reason to fear and is empowered with the appropriate authority and tools to investigate (my alleged) waste.
I do agree with some of your comments about the Provincial Gov't.
As for me, I'll buy my booze in Mississauga.
Don't worry Uncle Bobby I have no intention of slamming His Blondness or the rest of his troop but I do think its high time that a City Auditor report on City waste a la the Federal Auditor...someone who has no reason to fear and is empowered with the appropriate authority and tools to investigate (my alleged) waste.
I do agree with some of your comments about the Provincial Gov't.
As for me, I'll buy my booze in Mississauga.
Similar article on the news section of C'est What's Web site that I had seen last week also regarding the same topic
http://cestwhat.com/news.asp
"Culture Cash Grab" - May 15th
(scroll down the page to find the article)
http://cestwhat.com/news.asp
"Culture Cash Grab" - May 15th
(scroll down the page to find the article)
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Uncle Bobby
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: East End Toronto
- Contact:
So many issues to address. And I am hesitant to digress from the usual topic of beer. So here are some quick bullets.
Of course rather than introduce such complex and notably unpopular intiatives, the simplest things for senior levels of government to do would be to use the current system to:
1) live up to their commitments in law to provide funding to the City for provincial programmes
2) stop appropriating revenue that rightfully belongs to the city (i.e. the business property education tax)
3) restore funding to services which have regional or provincial benefit, or where Toronto shares a disproportionate burden (transport, welfare, etc.)
4)Etc, etc...
5) What if, what if, what if....
But they are never going to do any of these because they are never going to make the municipal level of government look more capable or responsive or relevant or (God forbid) democratic.
The thing about tax is, so long as the electorate demands a service with a sufficiently loud voice, somebody has to pay for it. Even in notorious low-tax or no-tax jurisdictions, like Alberta and Nevada respectively, somebody is still paying the tax. It may not be individual income taxpayers, and it is less likely to be corporate taxpayers. But someone is paying. Increasingly that is consumers and gambling members of the public. But the city does not have access to those revenues. So what is left? Cultural institutions and the financial sector.
And the crabbing about "waste" at City Hall, particularly by someone who prefers the heady cultural and political climate of Mississauga, is galling. Should we start with the biggest single line item in the City's budget: police salaries and benefits? Since accountability for the police is both indirect and shared with the province through the Police Services Board, why isn't the province paying a proportional share of the expense? (3 of 7 positions on the Board.)
Suffice to say that the current system of taxation is unfair in the way it tends to give the greatest revenues to levels of government providing the fewest services. And lines of accountability are exceptionally muddy. To dump responsibility for this unholy mess at the feet of City politicians is simply an exercise in political mud slinging.
Yes, it's unfair they are taxing a vulnerable industry. No, it should not be done because we would be cutting off one of the few aspects of our economy which is still vibrant and (praise God) growing. But to lay the blame for this mess at the feet of the current mayor, or municipal council, displays partisan political narrow-mindedness.
-Uncle Bobby
Personally I don't think that is the complete story. And the extensive coverage given this issue by both the Sun and the G&M/CTV corp. does not reassure as to the political neutrality of the whole initiative.crawler wrote:
If you link through Media Room to the Toronto Sun articles (by both Zen Ruryk and Linda Leatherdale), it explains there that the Coalition who put the Web site up includes:
Wine Council of Ontario
Spirits Canada
Ontario Restaurant, Hotel, and Motel Association
Ontario Craft Brewers
United Food and Commercial Workers Local 12R24 (Beer Store workers)
Negotiations until now have proven that politically neither the feds nor the province are going to give up anything, particularly where the immense amounts of cash provided by Toronto taxpayers are concerned. This would likely be an income tax on top of the two forms of income tax and multiple forms of commodity taxes (i.e. sales taxes, custom duties, and fees) we are already paying.crawler wrote:I don't oppose the theory of giving municipal govts. the right to collect income or sales tax, but before the feds or province gave the city that right, they would need to vacate some of their own tax-collecting room to ensure that individuals or corporations don't have to pay any more in total taxes than they do now.
By dictating the terms and rates the City should apply to taxpayers, the province would be overstepping its jurisdiction, at least if the City is to be considered a mature level of government. Unless of course the province would allow the City -- as they do in the U.S. -- to tax on the basis of both residence and where a taxpayer works.crawler wrote:And there'd have to be a range cap, similar to what Maryland did in that state when they gave cities and counties there that right (i.e. they lowered their rates by an amount and gave the lower tiers the right to impose a rate between x and y).
Of course rather than introduce such complex and notably unpopular intiatives, the simplest things for senior levels of government to do would be to use the current system to:
1) live up to their commitments in law to provide funding to the City for provincial programmes
2) stop appropriating revenue that rightfully belongs to the city (i.e. the business property education tax)
3) restore funding to services which have regional or provincial benefit, or where Toronto shares a disproportionate burden (transport, welfare, etc.)
4)Etc, etc...
5) What if, what if, what if....
But they are never going to do any of these because they are never going to make the municipal level of government look more capable or responsive or relevant or (God forbid) democratic.
The thing about tax is, so long as the electorate demands a service with a sufficiently loud voice, somebody has to pay for it. Even in notorious low-tax or no-tax jurisdictions, like Alberta and Nevada respectively, somebody is still paying the tax. It may not be individual income taxpayers, and it is less likely to be corporate taxpayers. But someone is paying. Increasingly that is consumers and gambling members of the public. But the city does not have access to those revenues. So what is left? Cultural institutions and the financial sector.
And the crabbing about "waste" at City Hall, particularly by someone who prefers the heady cultural and political climate of Mississauga, is galling. Should we start with the biggest single line item in the City's budget: police salaries and benefits? Since accountability for the police is both indirect and shared with the province through the Police Services Board, why isn't the province paying a proportional share of the expense? (3 of 7 positions on the Board.)
Suffice to say that the current system of taxation is unfair in the way it tends to give the greatest revenues to levels of government providing the fewest services. And lines of accountability are exceptionally muddy. To dump responsibility for this unholy mess at the feet of City politicians is simply an exercise in political mud slinging.
Yes, it's unfair they are taxing a vulnerable industry. No, it should not be done because we would be cutting off one of the few aspects of our economy which is still vibrant and (praise God) growing. But to lay the blame for this mess at the feet of the current mayor, or municipal council, displays partisan political narrow-mindedness.
-Uncle Bobby
::::::::::::::::::::::
"It's ma-a-a-gic!"
"It's ma-a-a-gic!"
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Uncle Bobby
- Posts: 383
- Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: East End Toronto
- Contact:
100 per cent revenue accountability would address ALL our municipal needs AND provide a sharp drop in taxes.
But these 'elected morons' you speak of choose to pretend such fiscal accountability doesn't exist or is beside the point. It isn't.
Think of a swimming pool - if there are some big leaks in the pool, you don't just keep adding water at an increasing rate. Yet that is EXACTLY how they handle city revenue, they never 'fix the leaky pool.' Instead they continue gathering more & more money from the public while letting it flow away uncontrollably. It is not sustainable and Toronto as a city will suffer for it.
But these 'elected morons' you speak of choose to pretend such fiscal accountability doesn't exist or is beside the point. It isn't.
Think of a swimming pool - if there are some big leaks in the pool, you don't just keep adding water at an increasing rate. Yet that is EXACTLY how they handle city revenue, they never 'fix the leaky pool.' Instead they continue gathering more & more money from the public while letting it flow away uncontrollably. It is not sustainable and Toronto as a city will suffer for it.
In Beerum Veritas
Wow UB... alleging that there is some sort of vast conspiracy where both the Sun and the Globe (2 papers that are on opposite ends of the political spectrum in their editorials and whose parent corps. are hardcore competitors of each other) are involved was just way out there. Why not include Royson James of The Toronto Star? He's written a few columns lately that are also critical of the Mayor and Executive Committee. I do have to wonder what your own partisanship is, with the near mirroring of the city's talking points re: the upper levels of government.Uncle Bobby wrote: Personally I don't think that is the complete story. And the extensive coverage given this issue by both the Sun and the G&M/CTV corp. does not reassure as to the political neutrality of the whole initiative.
Regardless, back to the topic on hand - so far we agree that imposing this proposed tax would be unfair to local restaurants and microbreweries and totally kill their recent positive growth. Not to mention an inequitable attack on the selected passion of everyone on the Bar Towel Forum. I just hope that they are taking the impact on those small businesses into account when they weigh their decision.
I have no problem slamming our mayor. This city has survived (and even thrived in other boom times) without the need for a municipal tax grab. Defend him all you like, but do tell me ONE thing that this mayor has accomplished that was not an intitaive of private business or another level of governement.
Embarrassing admission: I campaigned for David Miller in his first Mayoral election and voted for him in his second.
Hold him up next to Mel Lastman and he seems like a real leader.
Compare him to a real mayor and he seems like a complete washout whose only cause/idea/challenge/model seems to be raising more tax dollars.
This is vision? Slapping bumper stickers on busses demanding a piece of the shrinking federal tax grab? Complaining to the provincial government that we need more tax revenue? Threatening to slap a city sales tax on purchases? Raising water taxes? Raising property taxes?
The guy is completely devoid of inspiration or ideas. He can't even beg properly. No wonder he won't help the downtown business that are complaining about aggressive panhandlers - it's his model for how to govern a city.
I am ashamed to say that I voted for him - even more ashamed than I am that I voted for McGuinty (at least he has the inherited hidden deficit to fall back on).
And as a bonus, he urges Toronto sports fans to support the Senators! Talk about being disconnected from your constituents.
Miller's lucky - barely squeaked by John Tory (who has never won anything) and then ran against the weakest field imaginable in his next election. My anger stems from disappointment - this guy is a zero who a lot of us thought was teh dynamic leader this city has never had since Crombie.
Go ahead, defend a new tax. Then open your property tax bill and wonder why in a time when the economy is booming, you are still paying more.
Embarrassing admission: I campaigned for David Miller in his first Mayoral election and voted for him in his second.
Hold him up next to Mel Lastman and he seems like a real leader.
Compare him to a real mayor and he seems like a complete washout whose only cause/idea/challenge/model seems to be raising more tax dollars.
This is vision? Slapping bumper stickers on busses demanding a piece of the shrinking federal tax grab? Complaining to the provincial government that we need more tax revenue? Threatening to slap a city sales tax on purchases? Raising water taxes? Raising property taxes?
The guy is completely devoid of inspiration or ideas. He can't even beg properly. No wonder he won't help the downtown business that are complaining about aggressive panhandlers - it's his model for how to govern a city.
I am ashamed to say that I voted for him - even more ashamed than I am that I voted for McGuinty (at least he has the inherited hidden deficit to fall back on).
And as a bonus, he urges Toronto sports fans to support the Senators! Talk about being disconnected from your constituents.
Miller's lucky - barely squeaked by John Tory (who has never won anything) and then ran against the weakest field imaginable in his next election. My anger stems from disappointment - this guy is a zero who a lot of us thought was teh dynamic leader this city has never had since Crombie.
Go ahead, defend a new tax. Then open your property tax bill and wonder why in a time when the economy is booming, you are still paying more.
This is where Toronto is being totally fucked. The minute there is any positive development they can hone in on, they destroy the whole benefit of that development. Especially when it hurts the little guy who can't fight back or lobby the way big corporations can.crawler wrote:- so far we agree that imposing this proposed tax would be unfair to local restaurants and microbreweries and totally kill their recent positive growth.
Example: a neighbor's friend installed a wind-tower that would generate electricity & over 7-8 years would pay for itself in Hydro savings. So the City in all its greedy wisdom reassessed the land & called this an 'improvement' - and raised the man's property taxes substantially. Now he will not recover his costs but will pass on all his energy cost savings to the city in extra taxes. These nitwits destroyed the whole incentive of a person spending money on green power!
In Germany they don't give you a PENALTY for investing in green power - they HELP you by way of subsidy to install things like solar panels!! There is a sincere desire not to waste energy or exploit people who do save it. At present almost ALL solar panels manufactured in Canada are being shipped to Germany!!! That's because the German govenrment is smart enough to know that just behaving like greedy assholes is not a forward-looking social strategy. The green power grid works very well in Germany because of the mature social and government system which supports it.
In Beerum Veritas