If we had better lambics in Ontario, I surely would drink them too (let's get Boon back!).
I too have fond memories of driving up to KLB to fill the trunk of their early oversized bottles (remember those?). KLB will be sorely missed, and I can't help but think this is a direct result of their expansion. Why can't small breweries be content with their small-ness?
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KLB
All micros would love to stay small. But the unfortunate reality is that craft brewing is, by nature, a very labour intensive thing. It takes, on average, 5 people to do what a macro brewery does with one. We have no economies of scale, yet we are taxed at the same rate as the largest producers. The retail chain is owned by our macro masters too! We can't simply add these additional costs to our products cost because we would be totally uncompetitive. So we have to settle for smaller margins and look to up the volume.
Having said that, expansion must be done in a well thought out fashion. Plans must be realistic and investors must be patient. (I didn't mention the Banks because they won't even talk to the likes of us!) Sometimes a companies desires outstrip its abilities. If they act upon that, disaster ain't too far behind.
Having said that, expansion must be done in a well thought out fashion. Plans must be realistic and investors must be patient. (I didn't mention the Banks because they won't even talk to the likes of us!) Sometimes a companies desires outstrip its abilities. If they act upon that, disaster ain't too far behind.
most posts are very wide of the mark. Especially Rabbit about the raspberry wheat. Like other small brewers, KLB succumbed to obscene taxation. I will post the news when I am able to, but much of what has been said is not true. Some is though, Be patient and I will give a full update in one week.
all the best
Andrew Cousins
all the best
Andrew Cousins
I did not see Perry's last post before my first reply. This is the reality of small brewers in Canada. KLB is not the first to restructure its brewery or brands, and it won't be the last for sure. All of you can only speculate what it is like to start one and go eight years. I would not trade it for anything, and at the same time i got sick and tired of feeding the government money while all else suffer. All of our brands are succesfull, and all will continue to be so. The raspberry wheat is certainly the main stay, and by the by, its not supposed to be a lambic or a Framboise. Its a raspberry Wheat Beer. Its an American Style beer, and the best one I have ever had, and I have had many in the States....yes yes, I am biased.
As for the Rasberry, its a pure extract, extremely expensive, and always fresh. There was a silly comment to the contrary.
Andrew Cousins
As for the Rasberry, its a pure extract, extremely expensive, and always fresh. There was a silly comment to the contrary.
Andrew Cousins
Guess I have to say just a little more. The expansion had nothing to do with it. We had no choice but to expand. There was no significant increase in over heads. Someone could have died in the old brewery, it was that bad to work there. We had to move, and I did not, and do not, feel it was a gamble. Had to be done. I could write a book and maybe I will! 
Interesting comment, Andrew, considering the speculation that Amsterdam would be shutting down the brewery & probably discontinuing the KLB products.On 2003-07-14 20:53, zekkco wrote:
All of our brands are succesfull, and all will continue to be so.
Perhaps my suggestion of a KLB wake was premature, at least in reference to the beers themselves...?
Greg
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Auburntramp
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:00 pm
- Location: Camerons Brewing Company
I know It's fun to talk beers and it's a past time to some of you like collecting pogs, but let me throw something in here you may not believe, actual people put personal effort and time into starting and running breweries.
Now let it be said that, while most of you have an experience with a beer by going to an LCBO buying a beer, drinking it, then, typing here what you thought of it.
Of course it's all personal opinion. There are a metric ton of belgian ale heads here, that is fine and dandy. But we are in Ontario not Belguim. (Buy Local!)
KLB was the first brewery that I ever worked for. I was on the front line bottling there whilst going to Trent. Smashing bottles, burning my hands with the gluegun and listening to Nashville Pussy on the stereo system. I wouldn't change that experience for the world. I have a lot of really fond KLB memories and I am actually quite upset that it will be gone.
Drew is a distinguished Jazz head who, when I fell ill was supportive of me while I took time off work. Drew is top notch and always good for a laugh. John (the Brewer) is a great person to hang around and converse with about anything, and is by far one of the best brewers in the country. I'd like to see you guys dedicate a nice chunk of your life coming up with, and brewing beer.
I have since worked for two (Steam Whistle and now Camerons) other breweries but have always kept in contact with everyone at KLB. Working there started my love affair with good micro beer and made me appreciate the effort and commitment to good beer. Let's not forget that these are people with names, not just bottles with labels. Understand people put their lives into these beverages that are mostly taken for granted and that especially in Ontario, It is hard to be a little guy and make money at what you love to do.
Taxes, markets, and unfair advantages from the big breweries make it tough for the small guys, and if you don't throw your support behind them, well, they end up in the position KLB was left in.
So when you guys are cheers-ing your last bottles of pale or raspberry (I had a nice good-bye with a 58 of trent valley lager at the beer fest((Sorry Guy and Shane)) ) think about the hard working people who brought you that wonderful beer for so many years too.
This is a sad loss to Ontario beer and I wish everyone at KLB the best in the future, and John I hope you return to making beer someday. Thanks for all the support and really good times and amazing beer over the years, Thank you!
Nathan
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Auburntramp on 2003-07-14 22:46 ]</font>
Now let it be said that, while most of you have an experience with a beer by going to an LCBO buying a beer, drinking it, then, typing here what you thought of it.
Of course it's all personal opinion. There are a metric ton of belgian ale heads here, that is fine and dandy. But we are in Ontario not Belguim. (Buy Local!)
KLB was the first brewery that I ever worked for. I was on the front line bottling there whilst going to Trent. Smashing bottles, burning my hands with the gluegun and listening to Nashville Pussy on the stereo system. I wouldn't change that experience for the world. I have a lot of really fond KLB memories and I am actually quite upset that it will be gone.
Drew is a distinguished Jazz head who, when I fell ill was supportive of me while I took time off work. Drew is top notch and always good for a laugh. John (the Brewer) is a great person to hang around and converse with about anything, and is by far one of the best brewers in the country. I'd like to see you guys dedicate a nice chunk of your life coming up with, and brewing beer.
I have since worked for two (Steam Whistle and now Camerons) other breweries but have always kept in contact with everyone at KLB. Working there started my love affair with good micro beer and made me appreciate the effort and commitment to good beer. Let's not forget that these are people with names, not just bottles with labels. Understand people put their lives into these beverages that are mostly taken for granted and that especially in Ontario, It is hard to be a little guy and make money at what you love to do.
Taxes, markets, and unfair advantages from the big breweries make it tough for the small guys, and if you don't throw your support behind them, well, they end up in the position KLB was left in.
So when you guys are cheers-ing your last bottles of pale or raspberry (I had a nice good-bye with a 58 of trent valley lager at the beer fest((Sorry Guy and Shane)) ) think about the hard working people who brought you that wonderful beer for so many years too.
This is a sad loss to Ontario beer and I wish everyone at KLB the best in the future, and John I hope you return to making beer someday. Thanks for all the support and really good times and amazing beer over the years, Thank you!
Nathan
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Auburntramp on 2003-07-14 22:46 ]</font>
Nathan is right. If you want to see micros flourish and produce more interesting beers, they have to have the support of the craft beer drinking community. Its fine to buy fine imports. Life would be so boring without variety. But for your everyday drinking, Ontario produced craft beers should be prime. We need your continued support. I know many of you do buy Ontario craft beers on a regular basis, but we need the same kind of rabid support local beers get in Michigan or Oregon.
Andrew, you fought the good fight for lo these many years and for that the craft industry owes you a debt of gratitude. We should all hold off on the speculation until you give us the real low down.
Cheers!
Perry
Andrew, you fought the good fight for lo these many years and for that the craft industry owes you a debt of gratitude. We should all hold off on the speculation until you give us the real low down.
Cheers!
Perry
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Jon Walker
- Seasoned Drinker
- Posts: 1899
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: Wherever you go there you are
It's an interesting crossroads on this forum. On one end there are the large number of brewers, distributors and other micro related folk who frequent here...on the other end are the small but rabid, generally well informed beer drinkers who I think it's fair to say represent a good sampling of the larger micro (not macro) buying public. I often find it dissappointing when discussions here fall into one of two camps...drinkers slanging brewers with naive or insensitive comments AND the brewing people pointing the finger defensively back at the very people most likely to support their products.
Is it sad that KLB are going down...sure. But to argue that they are doing so because people like us are buying too many imports is a little unfair. I for one found KLB's products reasonable but not thrilling. I for one don't buy a great deal of Belgian beer, though I do buy a lot of English, and I don't feel somehow responsible for KLB closing its doors. Rather than ask us to support a brewery just because it's local why not entice us to support it by making beer that sets it apart, beer we fall in love with and rabidly consume.
The comparison was made to Michigan and Oregon. In fareness we get back to the chicken/egg debate...is it hard for small brewers to find customers because the market isn't there or is the market not there because the brewers are failing to produce the product to fuel it? I've only been in Ontario for a few years now and I've got to say...the micro scene here is pretty timid and lacks innovation. Why isn't there a brewery here with a product line like those offered by Dogfish Head, Smuttynose, Victory or a host of other small(ish) breweries south of the border? While I recognize their taxation and distribution is not similarly incumbered I'm not clear on why a micro brewery here can't emulate their product lines.
At the end of the day, yes we drinkers need to be more sensitive to the tough plight of the micro brewer. On the brewer's end you've got to realize that we'll be more likely to keep your doors open and stock our cellars with more of your product when you give us product worthy of supporting. There's some good beer in Ontario, don't get me wrong, but when half the micros here are brewing only cream ales, pale ales and lagers you're just not going to draw my money away from the imports.
Keep fighting the good, and uphill fight!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jon Walker on 2003-07-15 10:26 ]</font>
Is it sad that KLB are going down...sure. But to argue that they are doing so because people like us are buying too many imports is a little unfair. I for one found KLB's products reasonable but not thrilling. I for one don't buy a great deal of Belgian beer, though I do buy a lot of English, and I don't feel somehow responsible for KLB closing its doors. Rather than ask us to support a brewery just because it's local why not entice us to support it by making beer that sets it apart, beer we fall in love with and rabidly consume.
The comparison was made to Michigan and Oregon. In fareness we get back to the chicken/egg debate...is it hard for small brewers to find customers because the market isn't there or is the market not there because the brewers are failing to produce the product to fuel it? I've only been in Ontario for a few years now and I've got to say...the micro scene here is pretty timid and lacks innovation. Why isn't there a brewery here with a product line like those offered by Dogfish Head, Smuttynose, Victory or a host of other small(ish) breweries south of the border? While I recognize their taxation and distribution is not similarly incumbered I'm not clear on why a micro brewery here can't emulate their product lines.
At the end of the day, yes we drinkers need to be more sensitive to the tough plight of the micro brewer. On the brewer's end you've got to realize that we'll be more likely to keep your doors open and stock our cellars with more of your product when you give us product worthy of supporting. There's some good beer in Ontario, don't get me wrong, but when half the micros here are brewing only cream ales, pale ales and lagers you're just not going to draw my money away from the imports.
Keep fighting the good, and uphill fight!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jon Walker on 2003-07-15 10:26 ]</font>
re John Walker:
Some good comments I think. KLB never had a problem with selling beer, we almost always had a problem supplying. There are enough people suffciently tantalized by our products to be sustainable. Again, the taxes render profitablity impossible. As for more interesting products in Ontario by Ontario brewers, it might happen if the regulatory/tax regime were different. They take all of our money so there is none left for inovation or marketing etc....the tax climate is counter-productive to all aspects of the business. One cannot utter a word about Canadian small breweries, criticism or praise, out side of the context of taxes.
Inovation would happen in a different tax environment. Evidence? The United States, whose tax rates are still a fraction of ours. Still to this day, small brewers pay the same federal excise tax rate as Molson and Labatt. Small brewers in the US get a huge reduction, and many of them pay no state taxes. In the brewing business, every thing happens in the context of regulations and taxation.
There is so much that can be said here, and many stats I could spit out about what it is like to be a small brewer. Here's just one: In the seven years KLB has been in business, we have had to suffer 16! audits by various levels of government. Most took about a week to complete and created Kaos in the brewery for that week. Each and every time the government owed us money, usually around $20.00 dollars on tens of thousands worht of remmitences. That's just one example of how nuts it is when you make alcohol in this country.
The hard cold truth is this: Governments in Canada have yet to adjust to the micro-brewing phnom. The regulatory and tax structure was and is designed for multi billion dollar breweries. Until that changes, life will be difficult or impossible for all small brewers.
No whining here, just stating facts.
ajc
Some good comments I think. KLB never had a problem with selling beer, we almost always had a problem supplying. There are enough people suffciently tantalized by our products to be sustainable. Again, the taxes render profitablity impossible. As for more interesting products in Ontario by Ontario brewers, it might happen if the regulatory/tax regime were different. They take all of our money so there is none left for inovation or marketing etc....the tax climate is counter-productive to all aspects of the business. One cannot utter a word about Canadian small breweries, criticism or praise, out side of the context of taxes.
Inovation would happen in a different tax environment. Evidence? The United States, whose tax rates are still a fraction of ours. Still to this day, small brewers pay the same federal excise tax rate as Molson and Labatt. Small brewers in the US get a huge reduction, and many of them pay no state taxes. In the brewing business, every thing happens in the context of regulations and taxation.
There is so much that can be said here, and many stats I could spit out about what it is like to be a small brewer. Here's just one: In the seven years KLB has been in business, we have had to suffer 16! audits by various levels of government. Most took about a week to complete and created Kaos in the brewery for that week. Each and every time the government owed us money, usually around $20.00 dollars on tens of thousands worht of remmitences. That's just one example of how nuts it is when you make alcohol in this country.
The hard cold truth is this: Governments in Canada have yet to adjust to the micro-brewing phnom. The regulatory and tax structure was and is designed for multi billion dollar breweries. Until that changes, life will be difficult or impossible for all small brewers.
No whining here, just stating facts.
ajc
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Auburntramp
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2003 8:00 pm
- Location: Camerons Brewing Company
Sorry about the pog comment.
Just realize the heart and dedication that goes into this, and it's really easy to slag breweries when you're not on the front lines.( I think most of you appreciate our position)
Hey, maybe it would be cool to have a collection of micro pogs to collect!
(Trade you my oatmeal stout for your corporal punishment)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Auburntramp on 2003-07-15 12:22 ]</font>
Just realize the heart and dedication that goes into this, and it's really easy to slag breweries when you're not on the front lines.( I think most of you appreciate our position)
Hey, maybe it would be cool to have a collection of micro pogs to collect!
(Trade you my oatmeal stout for your corporal punishment)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Auburntramp on 2003-07-15 12:22 ]</font>
Zeccko, what part of my post was off the mark....my obviously sarcastic comment about Raspberry making too much money or my comment about the single raspberry you bought to make it...if it's the first, then I was defending you and you obviously misunderstood...if it was the second, hey, I tastes what I tastes...again, as with some other posts under the same vein, the problem for most Ontario micros is the "me too" approach to brewing....you want to be as mainstream as possible yet don't understand why you can't survive when the consumer isn't blown away by your products...KLB Raspberry is one of the worst examples of a fruit beer I have ever tasted bar none so why do you brew this stuff....if you want to do a fruit beer, do a real fruit beer otherwise just brew Cream Ale in a clear bottle or a lager in a green bottle or something in a stubby, that always works! Now, having said all of that, I have every respect for KLB and other breweries like you for what you obviously are trying to do...it's amazing that people such as yourselves are still prepared to risk their own money trying to do so in Ontario and I am truly sorry to see the demise of another small brewery in Ontario notwithstanding my feelings about your products...or some of them.
Rabbit:
Sarcasm is good, sorry I did not see it.
Rabbit wrote:
"I tastes what I tastes...again, as with some other posts under the same vein, the problem for most Ontario micros is the "me too" approach to brewing....you want to be as mainstream as possible yet don't understand why you can't survive when the consumer isn't blown away by your products.."
There are many micros in Ont that are mainstream, and I would clasify KLB as having only one mainstream beer, Cream Ale. Jon and I wanted a presence in that market.
Our Nut Brown Ale has 6 different malts in it, and our Pale Ale is over 40 IBU. The Raspberry Wheat is over 50% wheat! Find another one on Ontario that is over a 20%....don't bother, you won't...nor in the States for that matter. If you choose to classify these beers as "mainstream", so be it. There are other much bigger beers in the marketplace, but 95% of the brands out there are mainstream. KLB and most other Ontario micro's are not in the same universe as M& L.
The "can't survie" comment has nothing to do with our products. 1700 percent growth over the first five years, and the consistency of sales always blows me away. The Raspberry Wheat has what I would call a fanatical following. You taste what you taste, and most others that I know taste differently. Its ok for you to say you don't like it, but its not ok for you to say that no one else does, which is essentially what you are saying. The facts devistate your argument.
And while I am at it, what other Raspberry Wheats have you compared ours too? Just would like to know, because every one I have tried had way too much raspberry in it, and was clearly not a "wheat Beer". (and I mean other Raspberry Wheat beers! Not lambics etc....totally different beer and therefore no comparison is sensible) I drink Lamic all the time, but would never compare it to a raspberry wheat beer.
Also not sure what you mean by "a real fruit beer". It's real.
Finaly, you ask "why do you brew this stuff"? Answer: because we sell thousands of 12 packs every month, and it gets bigger every year. Me thinks that's a good answer Rabbit.
all the best
ajc
Sarcasm is good, sorry I did not see it.
Rabbit wrote:
"I tastes what I tastes...again, as with some other posts under the same vein, the problem for most Ontario micros is the "me too" approach to brewing....you want to be as mainstream as possible yet don't understand why you can't survive when the consumer isn't blown away by your products.."
There are many micros in Ont that are mainstream, and I would clasify KLB as having only one mainstream beer, Cream Ale. Jon and I wanted a presence in that market.
Our Nut Brown Ale has 6 different malts in it, and our Pale Ale is over 40 IBU. The Raspberry Wheat is over 50% wheat! Find another one on Ontario that is over a 20%....don't bother, you won't...nor in the States for that matter. If you choose to classify these beers as "mainstream", so be it. There are other much bigger beers in the marketplace, but 95% of the brands out there are mainstream. KLB and most other Ontario micro's are not in the same universe as M& L.
The "can't survie" comment has nothing to do with our products. 1700 percent growth over the first five years, and the consistency of sales always blows me away. The Raspberry Wheat has what I would call a fanatical following. You taste what you taste, and most others that I know taste differently. Its ok for you to say you don't like it, but its not ok for you to say that no one else does, which is essentially what you are saying. The facts devistate your argument.
And while I am at it, what other Raspberry Wheats have you compared ours too? Just would like to know, because every one I have tried had way too much raspberry in it, and was clearly not a "wheat Beer". (and I mean other Raspberry Wheat beers! Not lambics etc....totally different beer and therefore no comparison is sensible) I drink Lamic all the time, but would never compare it to a raspberry wheat beer.
Also not sure what you mean by "a real fruit beer". It's real.
Finaly, you ask "why do you brew this stuff"? Answer: because we sell thousands of 12 packs every month, and it gets bigger every year. Me thinks that's a good answer Rabbit.
all the best
ajc