KLB

[Uncle Bobby]

...if it's the first, then I was defending you and you obviously misunderstood...

Then that's kind of a back-handed compliment, isn't it?

To all of the people at KLB, thank you and good luck. Raspberry Wheat is a fine and wonderful product -- lovely quality. The brewer displays justifiable pride.

I thought it was well-balanced between a broad-market beer and a purist's beer. Frankly, I thought it was brilliant, and often introduced people to it. My only apprehension was knowing that if I brought a twelve I was only going to get a few bottles of it, because everyone one else would nab a couple of bottles. It was doubly rewarding to know that there were good people working hard to produce it. I am going to the Victory tonight, and fully intend to drain their keg.

In fact I enjoyed a tall bottle of it just last week with a couple of new converts. I am going to buy up all of it that I can find, and afford, now. I will tell my friends to do the same.

Hopefully Amsterdam will continue to produce the KLB recipe and not their own. Although I realize not everyone feels this way, I think that theirs tastes like cough syrup. It seems to have gotten better since they put it in the flashy bottles (there's a pun for you German-speakers), but it still does not quite rate with me.

And from the sounds of your experiences with tax audits, that was harassment not enforcement. Really. Normally the enforcement people only go after companies from which they can expect something (i.e. cash) in terms of their benchmarks for successful audits. Handing money back is not a good benchmark. I don't wish to appear like a conspiracy monger, but you had a very successful product. I suspect you scared someone.

Once again, my compliments and condolences to you and to the KLB family.

-Uncle Bobby

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Uncle Bobby on 2003-07-15 15:06 ]</font>

[joey_capps]

Sorry if I posted any inaccurate information, but I was just going by what the person pouring your beer told me. I was there when somebody asked him about the raspberry wheat and he said we probably wouldn't be able to get it anymore because Amsterdam had its own Framboise. He also told me that Amsterdam was moving the equipment to Toronto.

Anyway, this is a really interesting conversation, and I agree that our regulatory and taxation environment make it difficult for our micros to produce a variety beers. Certainly, a brewery like Bell's could not produce the beers it does if it had to put up with the same regulations that Ontario Micros do.

On the other hand, I always get a little put off when brewers imply that because we aren't brewers that we don't have the credibility to judge and evaluate beers. Just because someone puts their heart and soul into a product doesn't mean that it's a good product (I am not commenting on any product or brewery in particular here). The proof is in the pint glass, and many of us here are aptly-qualified to make that determination.

I'm a teacher, and I know what it is like to listen to someone spout off on a topic of which they know nothing (i.e., the present government and education), but that doesn't mean there might be an iota of truth in what they have to say.

As for KLB, I wish you guys well. I could speculate on what I think is going on, but I won't. I do hope to see your brands remain readily available.

Joe

[zekkco]

Just to let you all know I have no offence to any thing said, and absolutley everyone is entiltled to thier opinions on beer. I respect that and always have, and it is more or less what I was saying.

Also, some are talking of KLB brands in past tense. There is no need to. All KLB brands will continue in the market, and brewed with the same standards, and the same recipe. No worries. I have full confidence in the brewery and its brewer. There is no issue there.
I now will be issuing a press release on Wednesday July 16. Media calls and our wee chat here make it essential!

If it is appropriate I can post it here as well.

ajc

[dhurtubise]

One of the most important comments made in this thread is BUY LOCALLY.

Every major competitve quality beer market in the world is supported by patriotic local markets who buy the beers simply because it is local. I believe that it is well accepted that England, Belgium, Germany and with some irony, the US are the champions of the world craft brewing scene in this day. Each of these countries host numbers of breweries that Ontarians would have great difficulties imagining. Belgium for example having a similar population to Ontario hosts more than 300 breweries, to Ontario's approximately 30. If we want more breweries and products we must first support those who are breaking ground today.

Buying locally allows local brewers to not only a firm financial foothold in the market place, but it also gives you a voice, a vote if you will, as to what products you want them to make for your consumtion. A brewer from Toronto, selling to Torontonians is much more likely to curb his talents towards Toronto's beer drinkers' penchents then say someone from Thunderbay or Montreal, if he can rely on his locals' support. That principal works everywhere and in almost every industry. The only way to develop exceptional talent and products is first by making it strong and viable in it's place of origin. Then it can flourish elsewhere.

That is why, even if you are not totally enamoured of a given local product, you should at least reserve one pint to one for your local brewers everytime you go out. Call it a supportive, or development tax and raise that pint to the men who are working hard to develope local world class beers.

Cheers to all.

Daniel

[joey_capps]

Dan, I agree. But our local brewer is Lakeport.

[A]

I'm not sure if I really understand the rally to 'Buy locally'. Either you have a product people like and they'll buy it, or you dont. You cant sucker, bully, or shame people into doing something they dont want to do, its really that simple, unfortunately.

Besides, it seems to me only one of two things can happen anyways:

1)A small brewery starts out with a great product, its successful, people buy it and that brewery expands because I guess they werent making any money before due to the tax laws, then they become bigger and are forced to dumb down thier beer(see Amsterdam) or go out of business (see KLB) and we lose.

2)A small brewery starts out with a bland, unremarkable, or even crappy beer, it doesnt sell and the brewery dies. Or it becomes a huge success because of its blandness (AND NO AFTERTASTE!!!) and we lose.

Let me put it another way. Are we saying that a brewery cannot start small, stay small and make a relatively good living? That microbreweries start up taking a bath for 3-5+ years on the hopes they can go bigger one day and make some money?

Is Scotch Irish making money? Will Mill Street at thier current size? Church Key?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: A on 2003-07-15 17:41 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: A on 2003-07-15 17:42 ]</font>

[dhurtubise]

LOL... yes my local brewer is Lakeport, but then the majority of my beer consumption is really local....good homebrew .

I would tend not to add Lakeport to my list local breweries, despite my previous comments, simply because they are not even trying to make good beer, for any chosen style. I think it is quite clear what breweries need to be supported for a united goal of producing excellent local products.

I will go out on the limb and say that there are at least three beers brewed in Ontario right now that would do well in any educated beer market, that being Scotch Irish's Sergeant Major and especially the Corporal Punishment and Denison's Weissbier.

And, there are several incredible beers beside those. I for one am very impressed with Magnotta's Wunder Weiss, Cameron's Auburn Ale and Black Cat Stout, King's Lager etc. I am missing several here, but what I find most interesting is that many of the newer releases are amongst the most interesting beers ever to appear in Ontario. Brewing knowlege is expanding in this province, as is the sophistication of the average beer drinker's palates. The evolution of both is necessary for the evolution of beer in general and gladly it is ongoing.

Let us provide support to those who are brewing quality brews and help introduce the virgins whenever possible. Doing both will ensure that microbrewers start gaining much needed market and the generation of the mighty $ will give them the power and persuasion to make the necessary changes in the political arena.


Daniel

[dhurtubise]

[quote]
On 2003-07-15 17:40, A wrote:
I'm not sure if I really understand the rally to 'Buy locally'. Either you have a product people like and they'll buy it, or you dont. You cant sucker, bully, or shame people into doing something they dont want to do, its really that simple, unfortunately.
-----------
First and formost you should buy locally because it feeds the local economy. Second it developes local talent and local specializations that can compete outside your given vicinity. This increases the local economy and creates jobs not to mention a stronger more united comunity that possesses a great deal of pride in their local achievements and origins.

You buy local beer to because of those reasons and because you don't want to pay 6.50$ - 9.00$ a pint for an imported specialty beer, when the specialty can be developed here. Brewers are like anyone of us who enjoys a good challenge every once in a while. I know a few pro brewers who still homebrew because it allows them to make different beers and because it is fun. Creating new beers is what the brewers live for and they would constantly be introducing more beer to the market if it was feasible.

You can look at how Quebec's brewing scene has flourished with the introduction of Unibroue and with people buying Unibroue over equally good and better Belgian counterparts. You can be sure that there wasn't a market for Unibroue beers when they started out. Those beers have hit more virgin palates then Wilt Chamberlain's basketball penetrated baskets. Those tastebuds had to be developed and like everything else, the more you have it the more you develope a taste for it and the more it allows brewers to perfect their art.

You drink local products because you want to be able to drink beers of the quality and persuasion you are ready to pay a premium for at local prices and because the money you pay eventually comes back to you.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dhurtubise on 2003-07-15 18:48 ]</font>

[A]

Sure, I understand the *reasons* to buy locally, I just dont understand the 'call to arms', so to speak.

Like I said, you can only really inspire people to buy locally if they have choices that they want to buy locally. Conversely, if the choices are there you'll find you dont *need* to inspire people to buy it.

In other words, appeal to peoples tastebuds, and thier 'hearts' will follow.

[dhurtubise]

A:

What came first: The chicken or the egg?

[the.brewer]

The best reason for drinking locally is freshness. Doesn't always guarantee good beer, but it's a good bet most of the time.
Michael

[Jon Walker]

I just want to respond to comments made by dhurtubise and his rationale for buying locally. Unfortunately I think the arguement, while patriotic, is flawed.

At the end of the day though the point still falls back on the idea that I and others will support local brewers who make quality product, not those making inferior or fairly timid, mainstream offerings.

The Ontario micro brewing scene is doing something typically Canadian...for the most part they're playing it safe. The brewers make cream ale's, pale ale's and lagers to try and appeal to the mainstream macro beer lover in the hopes that they'll walk ever so slightly into new territory and buy their beer instead of Blue or Sleemans. I can't support that. What I can point to is the vastly different approach taken in Washington and Oregon back in the 80's when the micro scene there exploded. Guys like Bert Grant started up small operations and decided not to bother making products for the Bud drinker, he launched products like his stout, scottish ale and IPA and guess what...the market grew around him and his quality and un-mainstream beers. Soon other brewers started following his lead and within ten years the micros, dozens of them, had taken a sizeable chunk of Coors, Bud and Miller drinkers and turned them on to a whole new world of beer. Now again, I KNOW the taxation situation is different here but what I'm saying is that I think the mentality is still wrong locally. The feeling seems to be make mainstream products and then hope to create a market that will THEN allow innovation and diversity of product. Guys like Bert started small but WITH innovation and diversity in their products from the start and the market found them.

Bottom line for me; make excellent, unmainstream beer locally and I (and I'm sure others) will have every reason to support our local brewers. I can't support mediocre beer JUST because it was made by a fellow Ontarian.

Finally I'd point to Perry at Scotch Irish. He'll tell you that I love his products to such a degree that I've actively tried to help him get them in more pubs in the GTA...I've done this because he makes a product worth getting behind.

It's a struggle to brew in this province, no doubt, but I will support what I love and what is quality.

[PRMason]

A brewery dosen't have to brew huge volumes to make money, but there is a threshold beyond which money is made.
I've been doing my contract brew for 5 years now, selling, delivering and marketing my beers by myself. I have worshipped at the altar of "tiny is best" for these 5 years. If I look at my balance sheet, it becomes obvious that I could make more money with a paper route. I have not drawn one cent of salary. Whatever monies I generate goes right back into the business. I continue to invest personal money to cover short-falls in cash-flow. I do this all willingly and greatfully because I truly love this business and industry. Having said that, it can't go on forever. Sooner or later I must be able to realise the volumes that will allow me to generate a modest income for myself and show a profit on the balance sheet. My long struggle to bottle Sgt. Major's IPA is a step in that direction. I can't speak for Church-Key, Mill St., Black Oak or other smaller micros, but I imagine that the case is the same with them. We don't want to be MolBat, we just want to make a living.
(any tears in the audience yet?):)

[Gunny]

Only tears of impatience waiting for that wondrous elixer called Sgt Major's to be released in bottles.

Slainte,
Jeff

[Uncle Bobby]

Personally, my inclination is to always buy locally. And I have never had a problem with quality when seeking local beers. I make a point to buy at least six bottles of an Ontario beer every week or two. It's a modest commitment, but it must help to some degree. However when I seek more experimental, "out there" beers, well, that is another story.

I would be curious to know what happened to some of the brands of beers which were a little more experimental, but which did not survive. Why did Niagara stop making Kriek? Why did Wellington stop putting their beers in casks? Although I cannot recall specifically, I'm certain that someone in Ontario at sometime has tried bottle conditioned beers, too. Why didn't they sell? Or not sell *enough*? It would be interesting to hear from some of the people involved in those decisions.

Suffice to say the fault does not lie with the brewers. These guys are working hard to sell their product and to develop market share. In harsh commercial circumstances, too. And there is a lot of intransigence in the market: consumers are hooked on brands that wrap themselves in the flag; pub owners are hooked on marketing campaigns which sell the beer for them; regulators are hooked on tax revenue and they are pressured by political masters who are hooked on big corporate donations; etc. The question should not be: why aren't the brewers more experimental?; but, what does it take to make money at this game? An experimental brand can make a name for you in the marketplace, but it will not sustain a brewery over the long haul.

And to compare Ontario or the GTA with Québec or the Pacific Northwest is an apples and oranges question. Despite our prejudices to the contrary, I believe consumers in many parts of the U.S., and particularly in Québec, to be far more experimental than consumers here. Americans, too, have a much stronger sense of their power as consumers.

And the federal and provincial governments offer a lot of financial programmes to help businesses in Québec: the feds in order to curry favour; and the Québec government in order to diversify their economy.

To shunt all of the responsibility onto the brewers is, I think, facile.

There is interesting, but depressing, reading in an old book by J.K. Galbraith on this subject. "Economics and the Public Purpose" puts forward the model that our economy is not "Free market", but is in fact a centralized, planned economy, like the Soviets had, but in the hands of the private sector. I have just started reading "Fast Food Nation", written almost 30 years later. Although not explicitly referring to JKG, it's amazing how consistent that model remains in many major sectors of the economy.

There are ways to survive and thrive in that environment, but it is not easy. To put forward a Darwinian view that these people and breweries are not surviving because they do not offer the right product is wrong-minded.

A start would be for the provincial and federal governments to start enforcing their own current laws in order to prevent the big breweries from slinging free kegs to publicans. It would immediately shut down a huge advantage that the big breweries have in a increasingly significant portion of the market place -- bars.

But in the meantime, we should all (continue to) buy our beer locally. Say, a sixpack every paycheque. It would not preclude anyone from buying other products and experimenting. You should enourage your non-beer-geek friends, too.

We could then turn Cass into the Canadian Beer-Gandhi, leading us on a "swaraj" campaign to buy locally produced products.

Cass, are you coming to the Fort York festival? Would you wear a dhoti?

-Uncle Bobby