Michael Jackson RIP

[SteelbackGuy]

Playing real guitar is a hell of a lot more fun.

It is a lot of fun, but I enjoy a challenge, so I prefer to play the drums.

Drums are fun to smash out some noise on, but I could never play them as a main instrument. I'd always consider myself a shitty player until I could do something like this:

Especially the double bass parts.

Playing the drums is not an easy feat.

I played guitar for some time, but found that everyone else was doing so. I switched to drums as a matter of need for a band I wanted to join. We formed and were successful for several years, and we opened for bands like Finger 11, and I mother Earth to name just a couple. But we started to fight, and eventually split. Too bad really, we had quite a following.

[Belgian]

Just for the record, I didn't say anything about him being a musical legend. I challenged that he's contributed nothing, musically, although I would not argue against him being called a musical legend, either. Jon Walker's references make that point, IMHO.

He had some devastating grooves and uncanny instinct for songwriting. His singing wasn't my cup of tea but he always was on fire, and his voice and movement made women absolutely beserk. He was a cultural pioneer in modern music.

Some people who really like Dave Matthews Band might listen to James Brown or The Meters, and think it sounds hokey, rather than insanely good with massive groove. People can be rhythmically deaf, and that's OK.

[Andicus]

Just for the record, I didn't say anything about him being a musical legend. I challenged that he's contributed nothing, musically, although I would not argue against him being called a musical legend, either. Jon Walker's references make that point, IMHO.

He had some devastating grooves and uncanny instinct for songwriting. His singing wasn't my cup of tea but he always was on fire, and his voice and movement made women absolutely beserk. He was a cultural pioneer in modern music.

Some people who really like Dave Matthews Band might listen to James Brown or The Meters, and think it sounds hokey, rather than insanely good with massive groove. People can be rhythmically deaf, and that's OK.

Just re-reading my own quote, I thought I should clarify... I challenged Tapsucker's claim that MJ contributed nothing musically. That is definitely not my opinion. I'm not a huge fan of his music (don't own any), but I think he contributed a great deal, musically, and as an entertainer.

[Belgian]

Yes got that, and Jon's comment nails that point exactly. Sayimg MJ did not bring a whole new level to dance music is like saying Henry Ford didn't do shit for the auto industry.

[The_Jester]

Media legend, yes. Cultural icon, yes. Performed in several entertaining videos, yes. But Andicus, you're right. I never liked his music (aside from the small guilty pleasure of "Billy Jean"), and I'm having trouble viewing him as a "musical legend."

Jon, your citations deal largely with sales and pop charts. Lou Reed has never been remotely involved with either, but I'd still call him a musical "legend." So, there's gotta be something else to it.

Derek, I think you got it right. Some of us are being "music snobs," in the same way that we're all beer snobs. Some of us, myself included, are unwilling to accept pop music as a legitimate, credible, meaningful source of music, just as we're all unwilling to accept Labatt as a meaningful source of beer.

[Belgian]

Playing real guitar is a hell of a lot more fun.

Playing the drums is not an easy feat.

You guys should form a band.

Call it Steel Dragon:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... Dragon.jpg

[Tapsucker]

Just for the record, I didn't say anything about him being a musical legend. I challenged that he's contributed nothing, musically, although I would not argue against him being called a musical legend, either. Jon Walker's references make that point, IMHO.

He had some devastating grooves and uncanny instinct for songwriting. His singing wasn't my cup of tea but he always was on fire, and his voice and movement made women absolutely beserk. He was a cultural pioneer in modern music.

Some people who really like Dave Matthews Band might listen to James Brown or The Meters, and think it sounds hokey, rather than insanely good with massive groove. People can be rhythmically deaf, and that's OK.

At first, I was just trying to be provocative (though I stand by my opinions), but now you went and got my back up!
If you are going to bring up the Meters, please do it in a conversation about talented, innovative musicians, not some apology for Disney pop drivel!

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

Playing real guitar is a hell of a lot more fun.

Playing the drums is not an easy feat.

You guys should form a band.

Call it Steel Dragon:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... Dragon.jpg

God that movie sucked. A real Judas Priest biopic would have been much more interesting.

[Jon Walker]

Jon, your citations deal largely with sales and pop charts. Lou Reed has never been remotely involved with either, but I'd still call him a musical "legend." So, there's gotta be something else to it.

There is something else to it...and I think I adequately explained to you what that was. The basis of my contention is not dependent upon sales figures though they are undeniably further proof of his worldwide appeal. Whether you like the music or not his unique style and specific contribution to the medium has inspired, and will continue to inspire, the creativity of fellow artists and the imagination of the general public. His artistry and his work will be hailed for a very long time alongside other contemporary dead artists like Elvis, John Lennon, Johnny Cash & Ray Charles to name only a few. Michael Jackson fully meets the criterion for the definition of legend and that's aside from the sales figures which, in my opinion, strengthen the claim. I can only guess that it is your own personal bias toward him and his music that prevents you from accepting that.

[Bobsy]

Jon, your citations deal largely with sales and pop charts. Lou Reed has never been remotely involved with either, but I'd still call him a musical "legend." So, there's gotta be something else to it.

Like the Velvet Underground, the Pixies were another band who had no chart success, but could be considered as legends on the basis of those who followed in their footsteps. I think its hard to argue that Jackson's music did not inspire artists who followed him (you only have to keep you ear open for how many times his hooks turn up in other people's songs). If nothing else, his huge commercial success surely inspired others to try and copy his style. For me, a musical legend produces music that has a timeless quality and transcends the era it was written in. Bands like VU and the Pixies still seem fresh and their music still seems relevant, whereas some of their contemporaries haven't stood up so well. Likewise, Jackson's output of the early 80s, with its funky beats is still eminently listenable, and a few days before he died I was crooning away to Billie Jean in a karaoke booth in Kagoshima.

In some respects I see him as similar to Bob Dylan - he produced a collection of excellent timeless classics in the first half of his career, before descending into banal crap.

Its hard to divorce ourselves from our own tastes when we make judgements like this, but I think its important to understand that our opinions of what's good don't always jive with the impact that a person or thing has had. Take Charlie Chaplin, for example, I hate his movies but I can't deny that he's a legendary figure in the world of film. Take also Anchor Steam - I know a lot of folks on Bartowel are underwhelmed by it, but I think its hard to argue against its legendary status in the beer world.

[The_Jester]

...I can only guess that it is your own personal bias toward him and his music that prevents you from accepting that.

You don't have to guess. I already acknowledged this:

...I never liked his music (aside from the small guilty pleasure of "Billy Jean"), and I'm having trouble viewing him as a "musical legend." ...

[Jon Walker]

Okay... Because you don't like his music you can't see him as a legend but can you see how others (and in fact the vast majority of the public and luminaries in the recording industry) would claim MJ to be legendary? Seems a little narrow minded to object to how others classify him? I don't own, or have I owned, a single MJ album nor would I classify myself as a fan but that doesn't change how I view the evidence which is frankly incontrovertible IMHO.

Let me put it this way, what in your opinion disqualifies him as a "musical legend" other than your own dislike of his music?

[Belgian]

You guys should form a band.

Call it Steel Dragon:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... Dragon.jpg

God that movie sucked. A real Judas Priest biopic would have been much more interesting.

Great movie idea. Hear about the guy who ran out of the house after Halford broke up with him, crying "I can't live without you!" before shooting himself in the head right in front of old Bobby boy... that's seriously messed up! Those kinds of stories dramatized would make for a VERY strange biopic.

[Belgian]

Let me put it this way, what in your opinion disqualifies him as a "musical legend" other than your own dislike of his music?

Lack of breadth in what people appreciate is what makes them discount, quite vocally, what they don't like. Beer is just the same - people don't always TRY to appreciate some beers after the first taste.

If you hear a particular type of music and appreciate definite qualities others cannot perceive, it's like discussing solid tangible evidence you can see but is invisible to them. It's just an irritating circular argument with no chance of resolution. It's like talking French in Houston, TX.

[The_Jester]

...Let me put it this way, what in your opinion disqualifies him as a "musical legend" other than your own dislike of his music?

Fair question.

I guess it's his genre. I believe that someone suggested earlier that pop music is the pale lager of the music world. Now, Jackson may have been, in his day, the finest pale lager out there. Maybe he is a "legendary" pale lager. But I'm not a big fan of pale lager, and although I'm sure there must be some good ones out there, I really don't know much about them. Because I'm not a fan of the style. And I don't think that the finest pale lager in the world stands up to even an above-average IPA, or tripel, or weizenbock. It's not supposed to.

Maybe you feel that this is an unfair analogy. I don't. Maybe it's just me. But, as with beer, once I learned to appreciate the finer points and subtleties of music that's not designed for mass consumption, I could no longer take pop music seriously.

As for people who do, I don't think any less of them (or more of myself) than I do of people who drink Laker. There are certainly as many of them out there. To each his, or her, own.