What professional brewers think of Ratebeer and Beeradvocate

[thebandit87]

This is a very interesting forum discussion about what professional brewers think of Ratebeer and Beeradvocate.

http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/show ... hp?t=17959

I would love to hear the opinion of local brewers to on this topic. I think they are a few on this forum.

[pootz]

Pro brewers are always pissing and moaning about the quality of "uncertified" reviews on the ratings sites. I can understand their complaints because I've read lots of reviews from people who have no farking reason to be offering opinions on beer....OTOH there is a "prima dona" gene in all craft brewers that resents criticism...particularly from dweebs who smell/taste 'corn' in every beer they don't like. Those beers are some brewer's "babies" and mothers resent someone calling their kid an ugly mutt.

[saints_gambit]

Of course, it goes without saying that 99% of beer served in the world is served to the "uncertified."

That said, there's a lot of negativity on the part of the nerds and there's also a lot of defensiveness on the part of the brewers. Both are totally justifiable social phenomenon since 1)RB and BA both eventually develop top dogs and a certain amount of negativity is required in order to make a name for yourself and 2)You'd be upset too if something you worked hard on was poured down the drain by some idiot with the handle "h4ng0v3r911."

Both problems will always exist since people like to be able to complain fairly anonymously and other people hate people who complain.

[Tapsucker]

I have to say the vitriol these "pro brewers" have crafted was far cleverer and more fun to read than the noise on RB and BA.

I especially liked the comment on having been acquainted with the opposite sex (or same, doesn't matter). I wonder if that happened after brewing up a DIPA 22% roofie...

Ultimately, the internet is a great place to find people who agree with you or will put you down, if you look hard enough.

[Belgian]

I think the 'unfairly' critical reviewers are there to make up for some of the brewers - ones that are unduly content. Without internet, yeah of course brewers would have an unfair advantage. Some harsh web reviews bring balance to The Force.

As with Michael Moore, sometimes deliberately emphasizing a critical viewpoint get more done than a bunch of nicey-pants tip-toeing around the obvious (AKA saying nothing.)

Complaints from industry notwithstanding. Not that I agree with every slag-fest review (mind the language people LOL!) but people have to realize the web is just the web and go focus on important things.

Like brewing their beer.

[Belgian]

Having gone and read more comments, it seems some brewers have amazingly stereotyped and dismissive opinions of beer raters - ironic because this is the same kind of narrowness and contempt they seem to resent in beer raters.

Funny also the complaint over bigger, high-ABV beers being automatically considered 'better' because they rate higher on the sites. When obviously a big beer is often in fact 'more of a beer' to many raters. Hence the high ratings. LOL. It is just what's popular in craft beer. There are more flavors in greater intensity in some of those beers. I don't think Dark Lord is a threat to the popularity of pale lagers if the brewers are in knots over those ratings.

[pootz]

The ultimate test of a brewer's art is how well his beer sells and is sought out. Ratings sites are filled with many different tastes and intellects but ultimately a consensus emerges that is relatively accurate.

Most people who drink beer don't read ratings boards and if they do, all but the truly feeble-minded form their own opinion.

Good beer sells itself regardless of what the dweebs or experts say about it.

[Philip1]

Funny also the complaint over bigger, high-ABV beers being automatically considered 'better' because they rate higher on the sites. When obviously a big beer is often in fact 'more of a beer' to many raters. Hence the high ratings. LOL. It is just what's popular in craft beer. There are more flavors in greater intensity in some of those beers.

So a more subtle, better balanced beer is 'less of a beer' than the extreme ones? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it is that very (American) attitude that put me off BA years ago. Kind of like 'burn the mouth off ya wings' or curry so hot that it overpowers everything else. What's the point? They're OK once in a while but a novelty 'extreme' beer that assaults the palate is less interesting than a well-balanced session ale that one can appreciate for years.

[pootz]

So a more subtle, better balanced beer is 'less of a beer' than the extreme ones? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it is that very (American) attitude that put me off BA years ago. Kind of like 'burn the mouth off ya wings' or curry so hot that it overpowers everything else. What's the point? They're OK once in a while but a novelty 'extreme' beer that assaults the palate is less interesting than a well-balanced session ale that one can appreciate for years.

Absolutely! There was a meme going round a few years ago that only extreme was Kool (regardless of how ridiculously unbalanced and one dimensional)...very juvenile but it did set out a twisted message from certain ratings pubahs to newbies to reject subtle complexity or balance or common/mainstream styles as 'lame'.

Things are coming back on course though because the newbies who went for the over amped beers found they couldn't drink a few of them without messy painful consequences.....and moderation in taste, style and ABV is not neccessarily a bad thing now.

[Jon Walker]

My only major criticism of RB and BA, from a small brewer's perspective, is that raters in general are not customers. Many buy a product once (often a single bottle or shared between others) and then they move on. The constant quest for what is new and unrated means some of these folks just aren't buying their products with any regularity regardless of quality. That is frustrating since a brewery can only prosper by having beers that sell consistently and in volume, not a constant flow of one off's and seasonals that require new marketing, labeling, costly shelf space etc...

Having said that I think brewers need to view RB & BA for what they are, a core sample from a specific wedge of the market. The vast majority of the beer buying market are not rating beer and are not using those sites to determine what to buy. Having said that the vast majority of the beer buying market isn't buying micro beers judging by all objective studies (although on the increase both here and in the U.S. micro sales still represent less than 10% when averaged over all territories).

Micro brewers would be foolish to dismiss the sites as the mindless prattle or geeky beer knobs with no training. Like the results or not this is what marketers call a market wedge, or a key demographic (in T.V. parlance). These guys (and they are mostly guys) are a really great bellweather for a products general perception and appeal to a very key and substantive part of their market. Do the sites favour bigger, bolder beers? Indeed. What can be learned from that? There's a market, however specific, for bigger, bolder beers! If you are a brewer who only makes a pale ale, a cream ale and a lager what exactly would you expect from a demographic like this? Those beers would have to be exceptional within their styles to make much of an impression.

I dare say that if there was a Joe Sixpack ratings site where you could only rate lager, pilsner, cream ale and pale ale you'd likely be hearing a very different tune from brewers. They'd be crowing about how their bland, mediocre lager got a 95% Suddenly those uneducated, geeky reviewers would have "excellent taste" and "refined palettes".

RB and BA are not perfect mirrors of the general market, nor are they final arbiters of what is good and what is not. But if a beer has a score of 10 or a score of 90 with more than 500 ratings I think it would be foolish to dismiss that feedback entirely.

[Belgian]

Funny also the complaint over bigger, high-ABV beers being automatically considered 'better' because they rate higher on the sites. When obviously a big beer is often in fact 'more of a beer' to many raters. Hence the high ratings. LOL. It is just what's popular in craft beer. There are more flavors in greater intensity in some of those beers.

So a more subtle, better balanced beer is 'less of a beer' than the extreme ones? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it is that very (American) attitude that put me off BA years ago. Kind of like 'burn the mouth off ya wings' or curry so hot that it overpowers everything else. What's the point? They're OK once in a while but a novelty 'extreme' beer that assaults the palate is less interesting than a well-balanced session ale that one can appreciate for years.

Well it's not 'less' of a beer in intrinsic terms, but in quantitative terms? Perhaps. If there are tons of things going on in a pretty massive beer, AND they all really work together AND the overall effect does not suck, that is indeed an impressive achievement that merits special note. I especially love a beer such as Avery Maharaja, really hoppy but flavorful. And I could not drink it every day.

Would you not say a triple-fudge chocolate brownie is 'more' of a dessert than a plain oatmeal cookie? Whether or not it's a daily thing, there is a quantitative difference in the experience. It's a measurable thing, whether or not people get carried away low-balling 'regular' beer ratings (who really cares.)

[zane9]

...Micro brewers would be foolish to dismiss the sites as the mindless prattle or geeky beer knobs with no training. Like the results or not this is what marketers call a market wedge, or a key demographic (in T.V. parlance). These guys (and they are mostly guys) are a really great bellweather for a products general perception and appeal to a very key and substantive part of their market. Do the sites favour bigger, bolder beers? Indeed. What can be learned from that? There's a market, however specific, for bigger, bolder beers! If you are a brewer who only makes a pale ale, a cream ale and a lager what exactly would you expect from a demographic like this? Those beers would have to be exceptional within their styles to make much of an impression.

Excellent analysis, Jon. Micro brewers who are not dialed into the 'net-based information flow ignore it at their peril. I have worked in advertising for years, and I can attest to the fact that producers and consumers are more tightly bound together than at any time in history.

[Timmy]

I read a little bit of the thread. They seem to be whining about regular dudes reviewing their beers. But the problem is that the magority of people drinking their beers are not gonna be certified Judges. I mean come on we are just paying customers. Why wouldn't you want to hear from us.

On the other hand on the subject of rating brews on a one off basis I really try not to do that. If I give a beer a bad review and it's my first from that brewer I will always make sure I try to give that beer another chance down the road.