General LCBO Debate & Discussion Thread

[JerCraigs]

With all due respect, suggesting that the LCBO (or any other Crown Corporation, for that matter) does not consume some amount of tax dollars is naive. By no means am I suggesting that this is how it is kept afloat - I'm well aware of its profits. While it does, in effect, operate as an independent business at arm's length from the Government, it must (as all Crown Corporations must) interface with the Government in a fashion that is different than private companies. What funds that level of bureaucracy? You guessed it. Now does it generate more funds than it consumes? It sure as hell better. But it is not a question of actual dollars so much as it is the essence of the process: our elected Government, fueled by our tax dollars, have their hands in how the LCBO is run.

I'm curious what interaction you think that the LCBO has with government that another liquor distribution channel would not? Private alcohol distribution is still going to be subject to government regulation via the AGCO, LLBO and other agencies. We as a society have decided that alcohol is a product that will receive special scruitiny. The LCBO is just one small aspect of that.

[Kish84]

But this is getting way too complicated. My original point in all of this is that there is a lack in integrity in how the LCBO does business, and the online system is a great example of this. Case in point: still there is no Harvest Ale listed at the Queen and Coxwell store. And I popped in yesterday again and there is a ton of Dunkel Buck as well. But sadly it's not listed online either. I can't help but wonder how Muskoka and Beau's feel about this: beyond selling at their own breweries, they are only allowed to sell their wares through the LCBO, and yet it does not even have the decency, in 2011, to provide these guys a basic level of exposure such as an accurate representation of their goods online?

Where is the integrity in that?

I'm not 100% sure, but the fact that there is no online listing for that store has little to do with the LCBO as a whole and has more to do with that store in particular. Is it not possible that the product came, and they forgot to process/receive it in the system, yet still put it on the floor for customers to purchase?

While not the best of situations, I don't think its a bad thing at all. If anything, does that not work out better for you? You get to buy your stock before others find out about it, and then you can tell others about it and be a hero!!

In terms of how Muskoka and Beau's feel about the stock not showing up online, I used to work in a big box store and dealt with vendors quite often. They didn't mind the stock not being in the system. What they did care about was if we physically had the stock and it wasn't on the floor, whether it was received in the system or not.

It goes both ways, stock not being in the system but physically on the floor to purchase (rare, IMO) and stock in the system but no where in site. I know which of the 2 situations I'd rather have.

[Belgian]

I think the only reason online availability has become such a hot discussion is the abnormal scarcity of premium products sold here.

A great, up-to-the-minute inventory count would not solve this basic lack of product supply, would it. We are always on high alert to not miss stuff - forget blaming the LC website.

[ErkLR]

But this is getting way too complicated. My original point in all of this is that there is a lack in integrity in how the LCBO does business, and the online system is a great example of this.

If not being able to keep a near-perfect and real-time updated online stock is an example of lacking in integrity, I'm not sure what you mean by "integrity". To me it means being open about your policies and fair and honest in your selling. The online system has nothing to do with that, and really because "integrity" is such a vague concept, I really had more of a problem with you saying the shortcomings of the online system were indicative of a tax-funded system, which it's not. And I agree with JerCraigs about the LCBO's interaction with gov't.

The LCBO must surely have issues because it's a crown corporation; it's online system is not one of them.

[cratez]

I think the only reason online availability has become such a hot discussion is the abnormal scarcity of premium products sold here.

A great, up-to-the-minute inventory count would not solve this basic lack of product supply...We are always on high alert to not miss stuff...

This man speaks the truth!

[munrets]

[quote="ErkLR"][quote="munrets"]But this is getting way too complicated. My original point in all of this is that there is a lack in integrity in how the LCBO does business, and the online system is a great example of this.[/quote]

If not being able to keep a near-perfect and real-time updated online stock is an example of lacking in integrity, I'm not sure what you mean by "integrity". To me it means being open about your policies and fair and honest in your selling. The online system has nothing to do with that, and really because "integrity" is such a vague concept, I really had more of a problem with you saying the shortcomings of the online system were indicative of a tax-funded system, which it's not. And I agree with JerCraigs about the LCBO's interaction with gov't.

The LCBO must surely have issues because it's a crown corporation; it's online system is not one of them.[/quote]

Gotcha. Very well said/written.

I think we've reached a bit of agree-to-disagree territory wrt to what constitutes integrity but so be it.

More cheers, more beers, ad infinitum.

[munrets]

[quote="JerCraigs"][quote="munrets"]With all due respect, suggesting that the LCBO (or any other Crown Corporation, for that matter) does not consume some amount of tax dollars is naive. By no means am I suggesting that this is how it is kept afloat - I'm well aware of its profits. While it does, in effect, operate as an independent business at arm's length from the Government, it must (as all Crown Corporations must) interface with the Government in a fashion that is different than private companies. What funds that level of bureaucracy? You guessed it. Now does it generate more funds than it consumes? It sure as hell better. But it is not a question of actual dollars so much as it is the essence of the process: our elected Government, fueled by our tax dollars, have their hands in how the LCBO is run. [/quote]

I'm curious what interaction you think that the LCBO has with government that another liquor distribution channel would not? Private alcohol distribution is still going to be subject to government regulation via the AGCO, LLBO and other agencies. We as a society have decided that alcohol is a product that will receive special scruitiny. The LCBO is just one small aspect of that.[/quote]

The LCBO, to use its own terminology, is an agency of the provincial Government. It returned $1.55 billion back to the Province's coffers last year, above and beyond tax revenue. As far as I know, this is unlike any other distribution channel in the province.

[JerCraigs]

The LCBO, to use its own terminology, is an agency of the provincial Government. It returned $1.55 billion back to the Province's coffers last year, above and beyond tax revenue. As far as I know, this is unlike any other distribution channel in the province.

That doesn't answer my question at all... and in fact negates your point about the LCBO consuming tax dollars somehow. In a private store that would just be "profit".

[munrets]

[quote="JerCraigs"][quote="munrets"]
The LCBO, to use its own terminology, is an agency of the provincial Government. It returned $1.55 billion back to the Province's coffers last year, above and beyond tax revenue. As far as I know, this is unlike any other distribution channel in the province.[/quote]

That doesn't answer my question at all... and in fact negates your point about the LCBO consuming tax dollars somehow. In a private store that would just be "profit".[/quote]

I believe it answers your question perfectly. You asked what sort of interaction the LCBO has with the Government that another distribution channel would not: paying a large dividend to the Government is unique. As you put it yourself, a private company would just pocket this as profit. Thus: your question has been answered.

And wrt taxes: the LCBO, a Crown Corporation, is, in essence, a part of the Government, in how it is structured, legislated, and how it allocates its profits. Thus, as in the case of all other parts of Government, its existence must consume tax dollars. Clearly it must generate more dollars than it consumes, but that was never the point of my argument. My previous posts elabourate on this.

[SteelbackGuy]

The LCBO, to use its own terminology, is an agency of the provincial Government. It returned $1.55 billion back to the Province's coffers last year, above and beyond tax revenue. As far as I know, this is unlike any other distribution channel in the province.

That doesn't answer my question at all... and in fact negates your point about the LCBO consuming tax dollars somehow. In a private store that would just be "profit".

Ding, Ding Ding!We've got a winner, folks!

[midlife crisis]

The recent fiasco of Grand River Pugnacious Pale at Yonge and Eglinton (all sold out before ever listed on the online inventory) also illustrates munrets' point. It is not a matter of a one-time failure to locate a product. It's a chronic problem, in an inefficient, lazy, bureaucratic organization that has little reason to exist in a modern, democratic society.

[midlife crisis]

Front & Jarvis is a small store, and is quite close to the flagship store at Queen's Quay as you say, but nevertheless they seem to do consistently well in these releases. They must have a good beer guy (or gal)!

[SteelbackGuy]

..............in an inefficient, lazy, bureaucratic organization that has little reason to exist in a modern, democratic society.

That's right folks, these are the reasons why Ontario is not a democracy. It is a COMMUNIST province within a democracy. I am sick of lining up for a loaf of bread every morning. I want 6009867889 options for loaves if bread, not one. We are living in a Russian communist style province. We need to vote Hudak to abolish the uber left. Privatize alcohol. Vote Hudak.

[JerCraigs]

I believe it answers your question perfectly. You asked what sort of interaction the LCBO has with the Government that another distribution channel would not: paying a large dividend to the Government is unique. As you put it yourself, a private company would just pocket this as profit. Thus: your question has been answered.

And wrt taxes: the LCBO, a Crown Corporation, is, in essence, a part of the Government, in how it is structured, legislated, and how it allocates its profits. Thus, as in the case of all other parts of Government, its existence must consume tax dollars. Clearly it must generate more dollars than it consumes, but that was never the point of my argument. My previous posts elabourate on this.

Apparently it was not even the point of your previous sentence... or you don't full grasp the word "consume".


You originally said:
"With all due respect, suggesting that the LCBO does not consume some amount of tax dollars is naive. By no means am I suggesting that this is how it is kept afloat - I'm well aware of its profits. While it does, in effect, operate as an independent business at arm's length from the Government, it must (as all Crown Corporations must) interface with the Government in a fashion that is different than private companies. What funds that level of bureaucracy? You guessed it. "


If I give you $100, and you return it to me as $50000, the word "consumed" is not how I would describe it... and I am not overly concerned with the level of bureaucracy involved. I call that a win. Some of the profit may be used up but from a tax payer perspective we are still better off than if BevMo or similar was running things and pocketing that money.

I don't mean to be as abrasive as this is probably coming off, but you aren't really making a point. Or at least not the one you are trying to.

[munrets]

[quote="JerCraigs"][quote="munrets"]
I believe it answers your question perfectly. You asked what sort of interaction the LCBO has with the Government that another distribution channel would not: paying a large dividend to the Government is unique. As you put it yourself, a private company would just pocket this as profit. Thus: your question has been answered.

And wrt taxes: the LCBO, a Crown Corporation, is, in essence, a part of the Government, in how it is structured, legislated, and how it allocates its profits. Thus, as in the case of all other parts of Government, its existence must consume tax dollars. Clearly it must generate more dollars than it consumes, but that was never the point of my argument. My previous posts elabourate on this.[/quote]

Apparently it was not even the point of your previous sentence... or you don't full grasp the word "consume".


You originally said:
"With all due respect, [i]suggesting that the LCBO does not consume some amount of tax dollars is naive.[/i] By no means am I suggesting that this is how it is kept afloat - I'm well aware of its profits. While it does, in effect, operate as an independent business at arm's length from the Government, it must (as all Crown Corporations must) interface with the Government in a fashion that is different than private companies. [b]What funds that level of bureaucracy? [/b]You guessed it. "


If I give you $100, and you return it to me as $50000, the word "consumed" is not how I would describe it... and I am not overly concerned with the level of bureaucracy involved. I call that a win. Some of the profit may be used up but from a tax payer perspective we are still better off than if BevMo or similar was running things and pocketing that money.

I don't mean to be as abrasive as this is probably coming off, but you aren't really making a point. Or at least not the one you are trying to.[/quote]

No, no, not perceived as abrasive. And to be honest, I've sort of been wondering how the discussion ended up here (i.e. what the hell is my point again?).

Here it is: all I wanted to share was that I thought the LCBO's system was lousy and that it was another frustration for me. Furthermore, providing such a poor service is an example of running a business poorly. I also do believe that there are consequences of this poor service for the consumer ([i]especially[/i] when you consider that supply is limited, which somehow got thrown into this) and for the brewers that I care about (i.e. the smaller guys such as Muskoka and Beau's who can't sell anywhere else because of legislation that prohibits it - the BS and their own breweries excepted). As such, running such a crap online system, to me, lacks integrity. By no means is this the only measure of integrity.

The only reason taxes ever came up was that I chose to call the LCBO "tax-fuelled" as a verbose way of calling it the Government. To say that it "consumes" taxes means that it shows up in a Government budget somewhere and at some point tax dollars get allocated to the LCBO. At no point was this ever about the LCBO being profitable, that it eats more than it makes, or really about money in any way. In fact, the only reason I bring up the Government at all is that this same Government (which is meant to represent the People) prevents me from getting "good beer" (debate at your leisure) for home consumption (I really don't get out a lot and I don't homebrew) anywhere but at their stores and yet, and yet, their online system can't even be kept up to date?

But here's the real bottom line/perspective in all of this: I must live the most charmed life ever if I can sqwawk online and devote this many keystrokes to something as trivial as an online inventory of beer.

(But then again, beer is awesome...)