Smokeless Joe overrated

[pereze]

If I want a 500ml can of a nice warm, flat beer like Fuller's, or any number of the other fine beers offered at Smokeless Joe, why on EARTH would I pay $9.50 for it when I can get it for $2.50 at the LCBO? I was literally offended by the prices of beer at this place. It is typical of "good" places in Toronto--it has something that very few other places have, but it makes getting this unique productive prohibitively expensive (and the service isn't great either). Also typical of such places, the one thing that is REALLY unique--cask-conditioned ale--was not available the time I went there. If you advertise that you are one of the only places in Toronto to have cask conditioned ale you simply have no right to be OUT of it at any time, EVER. The atmosphere is great, the food is great, and it seems like a cool crowd--a nice, unexpected respite from the Much Music and touristy Queen St scene outside. And that makes it all the more depressing that I will NEVER GO THERE AGAIN, because I am a pretty good cook and have a pretty nice place to live and could get almost 4 times as drunk, on the same beer, at home, as I could afford to get at this damned overrated bar.

[beergut111]

You nailed it right on the head, I agree with everything you said. I wont pay those crazy prices for a beer that I can get at the lcbo, but I will for a beer that is not available anywhere else. Have you ever tried Ciro's? They have a decent selection of bottled beer, and their prices are much cheaper than smokeless Joe's. The only problem is that it's located at Landsdowne and Bloor, but you forget about that after sitting down with a Rochefort10.

[lister]

Quite simply you don't go to places like SJ, BB, CW, B&A, Volo, Castro's, etc. to have beers that you can get at the LCBO. That's just stupid! I tend to stick to the tap selections and have the occasional bottle that I can't get for home drinking. Duh?

It would be nice if cask beer could be stored so places never run out but they'll go sour before they get tapped. Beer runs out, happens everywhere. Finish your pint, pay your bill and hop to another bar.

I will say though that one disappointment I've had recently with SJ and Volo is the service staff. One person in particular at each place. They're new, not just to the establishment (which I don't mind) but seem to be completely new to the profession. I'm a pretty easy going guy too so it's quite a challenge to annoy me with bad service but this week and two weeks ago were really bad. Both times I cut short my usual 3-4 drinks to 1-2. Bad for the owner and bad for the server since their tip will be smaller. Ah well, I should probably be cutting back anyways to save my sheckles...

[inertiaboy]

I will say though that one disappointment I've had recently with SJ and Volo is the service staff. One person in particular at each place. They're new, not just to the establishment (which I don't mind) but seem to be completely new to the profession. I'm a pretty easy going guy too so it's quite a challenge to annoy me with bad service but this week and two weeks ago were really bad. Both times I cut short my usual 3-4 drinks to 1-2. Bad for the owner and bad for the server since their tip will be smaller.

If you had the same person at Volo that I had, I sent a note to Ralph to tell him about the bad service and he assures me that server is no longer employed there.

[GregClow]

If I want a 500ml can of a nice warm, flat beer like Fuller's, or any number of the other fine beers offered at Smokeless Joe, why on EARTH would I pay $9.50 for it when I can get it for $2.50 at the LCBO? I was literally offended by the prices of beer at this place.

While I won't deny that Smokeless is on the high end of the price scale, it's not exactly rare to see beer marked up to 2 or 3 times the retail price at pretty much any liscenced establishment, especially in that area. There are places around there that charge 5 or 6 bucks for a bottle of Canadian or Coors Light, which offends me more than what Smokeless charges for decent beer.

Anyway, I'm not bothered by the prices of LCBO-available beers at places like Smokeless or Volo or beerbistro, since I don't go to those places to drink LCBO-available beers. I go to drink stuff that I can't get elsewhere. If I want to drink some London Pride or anything else from the LCBO, I drink it at home.

[shintriad]

Yeah, you rarely go to Smokeless for a bottle of anything...it's really what's on tap that's interesting.

I stopped going there myself, but I remember back in the day they used to offer some relatively obscure beers (had some great Harviestoun stuff before), but most of their offerings -- like Beerbistro and Biermarkt -- are things you can find at your finer LCBOs.

Volo also has some crazy high markups, but at least you're getting a unique beer-sperience.

[GregClow]

Yeah, you rarely go to Smokeless for a bottle of anything...it's really what's on tap that's interesting.

Really? I generally find the opposite. The tap selection is so limited at Smokeless that I rarely drink draught, unless there is something new/unique available. Generally, I scour the bottle list to find something interesting.

[lister]

If you had the same person at Volo that I had, I sent a note to Ralph to tell him about the bad service and he assures me that server is no longer employed there.

Oh good. He was brutal.

[JerCraigs]

On the one hand, I agree that that price is higher than I would pay for something available that cheap locally, but as others have pointed out thats par for the course at most places in Toronto. I also think your post is over reacting a fair bit.

I have paid $7 - before the tip - for a pint of Keith's up the street from Joe's so paying $9 a bottle/can at Joes isn't really a stretch, i just tend to only buy stuff that's more unique like the imports. SJ is not cheap, but its comparable to most places.

Frankly if your goal is to get "four times as drunk"... well you are in the wrong spot to start with. If you don't want to pay clubland prices, don't go to club land...

If you want to drink cheap(er) head to places farther out from downtown like Castro's Lounge, or Victory... or buy a local micro draft for half the cost.


(wait, isn't it usually *me* complaining about high prices? )

[jmcnally]

Funny story about Volo. A friend I go there with often doesn't drink alcohol and he usually orders a Chinotto, which is an Italian soft drink. It's on their menu, not surprising since it's ostensibly an Italian caffé. But the servers either look at him sideways or run off to look for it among the bottled beers.

Re: Smokeless Joe's. I've only been there once, but was a bit underwhelmed, after enjoying Volo so much.

[JerCraigs]

Volo also has some crazy high markups, but at least you're getting a unique beer-sperience.

Actually, they don't. Which beers are you thinking of? I think you'd be suprised at how little the mark up is on a lot of the bottles, and how much it costs to bring those in.

[Bobbyok]

I have paid $7 - before the tip - for a pint of Keith's up the street from Joe's so paying $9 a bottle/can at Joes isn't really a stretch, i just tend to only buy stuff that's more unique like the imports. SJ is not cheap, but its comparable to most places.

What were you thinking buying Keith's at all?

And while prices in Halifax tend to be lower than Toronto, there are several places where you end up paying $7 or $8 for a pint of Propeller or Garrison, the local stuff. I can't imagine what we'd pay for some of the more "rare" stuff, say for example, the Rogue beers Premier Wine and Spirits brings in, in a pub, which sell in the store for $8 a bomber. And I don't want to think about what we'd pay for bottles that were brought in on a special order, which is unheard of in these parts. Though if it was good enough, like some of the stuff Volo or Smokeless brings in, I'd gladly pay it.

[Philip1]

I was at SJ's recently and was annoyed that they still have that abbreviated menu I first saw there about a year ago. They've got loads of beers not listed but it's to awkward to find out what else they've got. They use to have a better list.

Almost all foreign beers were $9.95 but $5.95 for a Black Oak isn't bad -their brands aren't available where I live or at any of the LCBOs or Beer Stores I've visited in the downtown core so I didn't mind that.

I'm also surprised anyone here would go to SJ's for the draught beer. Black Katt Stout and Durham ESB - fine but nothing unique - have been on tap pretty much every time I've been there for about the last two years. The others are occasionally interesting but there's only five in total - no cask ale on my last visit either*. When I visited recently every tap was for a Pale Ale or IPA except Black Katt Stout. I prefer a bit more variety.

* At C'est What there's so much choice I imagine it would be difficult to finish each cask ale before it turns sour and too thin. But at SJ's with only five other choices you'd think it would be easier to get the required turnover to have cask most of the time.

[lister]

I'm also surprised anyone here would go to SJ's for the draught beer. Black Katt Stout and Durham ESB - fine but nothing unique - have been on tap pretty much every time I've been there for about the last two years. The others are occasionally interesting but there's only five in total - no cask ale on my last visit either*. When I visited recently every tap was for a Pale Ale or IPA except Black Katt Stout. I prefer a bit more variety.

I've liked the variety of the taps at SJ up until the last month where much like Volo, up to three or so IPAs have taken up tap space. I understand why they're there since this was shortly after the Fort York beer festival where a number of Ontario micros finally released IPAs (which I don't care for.) Though I would be equally annoyed if the same number of weisse beers (which I really like) were on the taps. I don't usually do one beer or one type all night. I like switching things up. That being said, the variety has returned after the disappointing service visit this week.

* At C'est What there's so much choice I imagine it would be difficult to finish each cask ale before it turns sour and too thin. But at SJ's with only five other choices you'd think it would be easier to get the required turnover to have cask most of the time.

I don't recall over the the years too many times where the cask wasn't available. Though I do admit that since the cask is usually Durham XXX I don't have it all that often but I usually sit at the bar to observe the pours. I asked Joe about getting casks from Scotch Irish (vanilla porter!) and others but Durham has the monopoly on that single cask setup. Recently, much to my surprise, Durham provided their ESB on cask. Quite nice and an interesting contrast between the usual nitro ESB which I really like.

[Jon Walker]

The beers that set Volo and Smokeless Joe's apart from generic bars are the beers they carry the AREN'T available through the LCBO. Private orders are expensive, they mark them up to cover costs and turn a profit, if they mark them up to high then people don't buy the beer and profits suffer. Each bar has to find its own "sweet spot" between affordability and profit margin. Look at where SJ's is located...do you figure rent for that place is cheap compared to, for example, Ciro's?

If you don't like the prices that's fine. Don't go. The place has been around for more than a decade in a neighborhood were bars and restaurants are lucky to survive a few years at best. Clearly someone's buying the beer.

My beef with SJ's, as has already been pointed out by others, is the generally poor selection of draft beer and the small number of taps. It's a tiny place, they supply what they can, but I'd go to Volo over SJ's 9 times out of 10...unless I'm in that neighborhood and want to have a quick drink OR SJ's has something really interesting that I want to try. Regardless, I understand the economics of their operation enough to not fault them for their prices. Quality always comes at a premium.