I plan on trying a few weizen recipees for wintertime.
I read somewhere that combining a sour mash with a regular weizen recipee can yield great thirst-quenching results... and to think about it, it does make sense to want to raise the acidity level of a weizen...
Has any of you ever tried this? Or have you tried to use acid malt, or some other form of souring?
Thanks for the tips!
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Sour mash for a hefeweizen, anyone?
No, I'm refering to those that use sourmash to up their hefeweizens. Straight good ol' hefeweizen.
Ian Guénard
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
There are a lot of beer styles that are done using a sour mash but does not end up being a sour monster. Examples of this... barleywine (Brewer's Alley makes one with sourmash), Oatmeal stout (I've seen a few recipees that call for souring to counter the sweetness), some farmhouse recipees (Farmhouse Summer Ale by Flying Fish as an example)... even witbiers.
Found one article in Brewing techniques discussing the subject
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/librar ... style.html
Was hoping to find someone here with the experience because the process looks rather tricky and the last thing I'd want to do is end up with 50 litres of berliner weisse in the middle of winter.
Basically, not all beers using sour mash technique are meant to be acidic bombs. Some incorporate only a tiny portion of the overall mash as being soured.
Found one article in Brewing techniques discussing the subject
http://www.brewingtechniques.com/librar ... style.html
Does not make them gueuze or berliner weisses. Charley Papazian discusses the subject as a means of sprucing up a weizen.One technique that's been tried by amateur brewers is to sour the mash by adding some whole malt to it and allowing the microflora on the malt husks to multiply in the warm mash. Although I have heard of some successes, I have tasted more failures and suspect that you have as good a chance of being hit by lightning as of getting what you want from it.
At least some of the souring effect can be achieved through judicious additions of food-grade 88% lactic acid, though to my palate the result seems less pleasingly complex than the result of a good lactic infection. In a 5-gal pilot batch, 10 mL is a good starting point, adjusting to taste. By the time you reach 25 mL, the beer will definitely be sour.
Was hoping to find someone here with the experience because the process looks rather tricky and the last thing I'd want to do is end up with 50 litres of berliner weisse in the middle of winter.
Basically, not all beers using sour mash technique are meant to be acidic bombs. Some incorporate only a tiny portion of the overall mash as being soured.
Ian Guénard
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
Some German breweries do a sour mash to adjust the acidity of their wort, while complying with their purity law.
I'd be inclined to sour a small portion of the mash, then blend it in with the rest after the saccharification rest (or do it entirely separately). Then you wouldn't have to worry about your mash pH being WAY off.
Maybe sour-mash 10-20% of the grist overnight (or 24 hrs)? Taste it and see if you want to blend it all in? Then see what it's like in the final product & adjust the next batch as necessary.
You are at the mercy of the microbes in the grain though. Grand River's Ploegers Vlaams Rood used this technique & it worked out well... though you could end up with foot cheese and/or vomit flavours.
I'd be inclined to sour a small portion of the mash, then blend it in with the rest after the saccharification rest (or do it entirely separately). Then you wouldn't have to worry about your mash pH being WAY off.
Maybe sour-mash 10-20% of the grist overnight (or 24 hrs)? Taste it and see if you want to blend it all in? Then see what it's like in the final product & adjust the next batch as necessary.
You are at the mercy of the microbes in the grain though. Grand River's Ploegers Vlaams Rood used this technique & it worked out well... though you could end up with foot cheese and/or vomit flavours.
Thanks for the tips!
Is there a way to get the bacteria in a controlled way?
I guess one could always taste-test before blending, if you can summon the courage to taste moldy beer... then again I've tasted by share of moldy beer, its just this time you KNOW its moldy beer before you dip in
Is there a way to get the bacteria in a controlled way?
I guess one could always taste-test before blending, if you can summon the courage to taste moldy beer... then again I've tasted by share of moldy beer, its just this time you KNOW its moldy beer before you dip in
Ian Guénard
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
You can purchase Lactobacillus:
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/bacteria.html
Though if you can get acidulated malt that'd be the easiest, as they've already let the lactobacillus do their thing.
Or you could just add food grade lactic acid.
But doing a sour mash yourself would certainly be neat.
The Brewers publication "German Wheat Beer" puts the pH of a Weissbier in the range of 4-4.4. Noting that some do have a pH lower than 4 with a slightly sour, lactic taste. But if it's less than 3.6, it's quite sour & untrue to the style (more like a Lambic or Berliner Weisse).
http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/bacteria.html
Though if you can get acidulated malt that'd be the easiest, as they've already let the lactobacillus do their thing.
Or you could just add food grade lactic acid.
But doing a sour mash yourself would certainly be neat.
The Brewers publication "German Wheat Beer" puts the pH of a Weissbier in the range of 4-4.4. Noting that some do have a pH lower than 4 with a slightly sour, lactic taste. But if it's less than 3.6, it's quite sour & untrue to the style (more like a Lambic or Berliner Weisse).
I've made two batches of Berliner Weisse using a sour mash procedure. The recipe & procedure can be found at http://www.ratebeer.com/Recipe.asp?RecipeID=110
The basic technique listed in that link should be adaptable for use in a Hefe. I discovered that the amount of sourness contributed by the lacto is hugely impacted by temperature. Keep the sour mash around 60 & you'll get a much lighter twang than you would if you did it at 80. It has been my experience that once you combine the batches there is little, if any, additional souring. My guess is that it has something to do with PH/alcohol tolerance/something else chemical, but I'm too lazy to go look up lacto in my copy of Wild Brews. My first batch has the same level of sour today (1 year later) as it did when the bottles were 3 weeks old.
In addition to controlling temperature you may want to adjust the ratio of soured mash to controlled mash - that recipe calls for allowing 1.5 gallons to sour, you may want to cut that down to 1.
One caveat - when young both of my batches had a light (very light - I was one of the few who could detect it) garbagey aroma. That dissappeared after maybe 2 months in the bottle. This may be an issue for use in a Hefe, since you're going to want to drink that as fresh as possible.
Good luck!
-rudy
The basic technique listed in that link should be adaptable for use in a Hefe. I discovered that the amount of sourness contributed by the lacto is hugely impacted by temperature. Keep the sour mash around 60 & you'll get a much lighter twang than you would if you did it at 80. It has been my experience that once you combine the batches there is little, if any, additional souring. My guess is that it has something to do with PH/alcohol tolerance/something else chemical, but I'm too lazy to go look up lacto in my copy of Wild Brews. My first batch has the same level of sour today (1 year later) as it did when the bottles were 3 weeks old.
In addition to controlling temperature you may want to adjust the ratio of soured mash to controlled mash - that recipe calls for allowing 1.5 gallons to sour, you may want to cut that down to 1.
One caveat - when young both of my batches had a light (very light - I was one of the few who could detect it) garbagey aroma. That dissappeared after maybe 2 months in the bottle. This may be an issue for use in a Hefe, since you're going to want to drink that as fresh as possible.
Good luck!
-rudy
Awesome thanks! I'll try this at xmas and let you know how it went!
Ian Guénard
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
So how did it go?
There was just some BW info in another forum:
http://beeradvocate.com/forum/read/1722876
They linked to another interesting page:
http://www.ipass.net/mpdixon/
There was just some BW info in another forum:
http://beeradvocate.com/forum/read/1722876
They linked to another interesting page:
http://www.ipass.net/mpdixon/
I havent done it yet. I ended up doing an imperial IPA and a trappist dubbel (Im benedictan, I swear) instead since the yeasts were getting older.
Thanks for the link. I will try the weisse tricks soon though, the hefes have GOT to be ready come spring time! Nothin gets the birds chirpin like fresh hefe.
Thanks for the link. I will try the weisse tricks soon though, the hefes have GOT to be ready come spring time! Nothin gets the birds chirpin like fresh hefe.
Ian Guénard
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
http://www.bieresetplaisirs.com/index.php
Hi
Hopefully not too far off topic but in regards to Decoction mashing and brewing a weizen, do I understand correctly that you take a portion of the original mash and boil it in a separate pot?
My immediate thinking is how much liquid goes with the separate boil so as not to scorch the grains in the second pot.
I worry that the portion I take to boil would not contain enough water and I'd damage the grains.
Thanks
J
Hopefully not too far off topic but in regards to Decoction mashing and brewing a weizen, do I understand correctly that you take a portion of the original mash and boil it in a separate pot?
My immediate thinking is how much liquid goes with the separate boil so as not to scorch the grains in the second pot.
I worry that the portion I take to boil would not contain enough water and I'd damage the grains.
Thanks
J
I only tried decocting once, using the thickest part of the mash (most of the grains) along with just a little wort... I stirred it continuously & only heated it to 190F. It was a very amateur attempt, with a double decoction turning into a triple to get to the right temperature, but the final product was good (though I wanted some caramelization & darkening for the doppelbock).
With a wheat beer, the protein rest should really help it out. And if you're using a modified cooler, doing a decoction is probably the easiest way to raise the temperature to the next rest (especially if you've already added water to raise it from an acid rest).
{edited for clarification}
With a wheat beer, the protein rest should really help it out. And if you're using a modified cooler, doing a decoction is probably the easiest way to raise the temperature to the next rest (especially if you've already added water to raise it from an acid rest).
{edited for clarification}