St. Pat's Pubs?

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:19 pm

So, what's everyone's favourite St. Pat's pubs for tonight?

Off the top of my head...

- Dora Keogh (Danforth)
- Duke of Gloucester (Yonge/Bloor)
- James Joyce (Annex)
- Mullins (Bay/Bloor - they call themselves an "Irish Alehouse")
- Fionn MacCool's (Esplanade)

Uncle Bobby · Post by **Uncle Bobby** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:01 pm

Cass,

Good list, but not comprehensive.

Was at the Irish Embassy yesterday afternoon. Snuck away from the parade early and actually got a table! Reasonably good Guinness and quality food, if slightly pricey. And very good shmoozeyness to the place, by the looks of it. It might be just another Bay St. meat market, but it hasn't "felt" too uptight on my last few visits (i.e. a woman deigned to speak to me, even though I was very apparently not a stockbroker). I did not check out the other taps. In fact the lay-out of the place makes it difficult to get near the bar. Lovely old bank building, but the vaulted ceiling can at times make it quite loud.

Fionn McCool's is okay, although it does share a certain pre-fab-ness with the Embassy and Scruffy Murphy's. P.J. O'Brien's, at the corner of Leader Lane and Colborne St. behind the King Eddy, is a part of the same chain, but has a genuinely homey feel.

The James Joyce is unfortunate.

McVeigh's is an acquired taste (it's basically an old-style tap-room), and seems to attract an older, ex-pat crowd anyways. I find the fact that McVeigh's charges entry on Saturday nights off-putting.

You have to have booked a year in advance to get into Allen's or Dora's, so forget it. But go another time of year because they are wonderful pubs.

Two gems, at least in sofaras the beer is concerned. The Tara Inn on Kingston Road at Midland is a barn where you'll meet tough Scarborough girls in nylon soccer shirts. The taps are dominated by Molson's but the Guinness is always spot-on. Get there early because the crowd literally heaves on St. Paddy's night, and very often ends up queuing outside the door. Or try McMurphy's, a little storefront on the south side Eglinton Ave. E., about 500m east of the Granite. The Guinness in both places is very good and leaves the rings down the back of the glass like it should.

Any place serving St. Ambroise Oatmeal Stout or a stout other than Guinness are a particular treat.

Has anyone tried that place over at King near Strachan, The Foggy Dew?

-Uncle Bobby
"It's magic!"

[ This Message was edited by: Uncle Bobby on 2003-03-17 16:14 ]

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:32 pm

Has anyone tried that place over at King near Strachan, The Foggy Dew?

I've never been inside myself, but the opinion I've heard from a couple of friends is that it feels more like a pre-fab pub-themed bar than an actual pub.

They have their draught list posted on a chalkboard out front, and it looks pretty lousy - the usual macro imports (Guinness, Kilkenny, Smithwicks...), and boring domestics (Keith's, Sleeman, Steam Whistle...). The only thing that looks moderately interesting is a house brew called Foggy Ale that I assume they are having brewed somewhere locally. I'll probably stop by at some point to try a pint, but I'm not expecting anything special.

As for my own plans for tonight - I hate crowded and smoky bars, so I will probably just pick up a couple of cans of Beamish and try to resist the urge to throw my glass at the television when Dubya declares war at 8 PM.

Greg

[ This Message was edited by: GregClow on 2003-03-17 16:35 ]

rabbit · Post by **rabbit** » Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:34 pm

I'd opt for any place where I can get something other than Guiness...how anyone can consider this Coor's Light of stouts as being pleasurable is amazing to me notwithstanding the orgasmic pleasure of seeing the rings it leaves on a glass (give me a break Uncle Bobby). St. Ambroise knocks me out (I don't understand how anyone can appreciate both St. Ambroise and Guinness but maybe it's just me) and bottles such as Samuel Smith Oatmeal or Young's Double Chocolate, Marston's Oyster or, for that matter, any of the Rogues....now that's stout....sounds like I should head down to Smokeless. If I knew how to do it, there would be a smiley face here

Uncle Bobby · Post by **Uncle Bobby** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:17 pm

On 2003-03-17 18:34, rabbit wrote:
how anyone can consider this Coor's Light of stouts as being pleasurable is amazing to me notwithstanding the orgasmic pleasure of seeing the rings it leaves on a glass (give me a break Uncle Bobby).

I personally don't mind a pint of Guinness, although I do have some issues with your sarcasm.

Agreed, Guinness is Ireland's own version of factory swill, but it does to some extent represent a high point in factory swill. And as far as the rings are concerned, it is simply an indication of relative quality. There is undoubtedly a je-ne-sais-quoi to producing a good pint in a pub. The rings are as close as it comes to a reliable indication of fresh keg, outside of ones palate of course.

If you know, Sir Rabbit, of a pub serving any one of the other brands of superior stout, we would all be happy to hear about it, particularly if they are on draft.

In fact I was speaking with my new girlfriend (an MBA in marketing) at the parade on Sunday about just this issue: how Guinness has come to have its brand construed as a cultural icon of an entire country. Very clever on their part. They seem to manage this hegemony quite well, because they appear to have discluded all of the other major brands of stout from international markets, including Canada. (BTW -- I concur with you on Beamish -- I've had it just down the road from the Cork brewery and it was deelish.)

Finally, since you mentioned oyster stout, and because I should should have mentioned it before anyways....An oyster stout made by Durham was (and I hope, is still) available at Starfish Oyster Bar on the north side of Adelaide St. E., just west of Jarvis. Very good beer. Bring a date and impress her...it's a really nice place. (If you can't get a date, bring your wife!) The oyster stout used to be done exclusively for Rodney's, but they only serve the other stuff now.

Looking forward to the pub suggestions.

Regards,

Uncle Bobby
"It's magic!"

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:23 pm

On 2003-03-18 15:17, Uncle Bobby wrote:
If you know, Sir Rabbit, of a pub serving any one of the other brands of superior stout, we would all be happy to hear about it, particularly if they are on draft.

I'm not rabbit, but I'll throw in a suggestion:

Mitzi's Sister on Queen West near Sorouren (a couple of blocks west of Lansdowne) has St. Ambroise Oatmeal Stout on tap, along with many other Ontario and Quebec micros.

It's not really a pub - more of a funky restaurant and bar with a slightly upscale pub-grub menu - but if you're in the area, it's worth a visit.

Greg

Uncle Bobby · Post by **Uncle Bobby** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:36 pm

Mitzi's Sister! Right on!

Josh Oakes · Post by **Josh Oakes** » Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:48 pm

Rings on a Guinness are not an indicator of quality. They are an indicator of nitrogenation, the "silicon boobs" of the beer world. While occasionally quite attractive, the rich foam of a nitrogenated beer is utterly fake, which to many (myself included) very much detracts from its appeal. Rings or lacing of foam in a naturally carbonated stout are an indicator of quality.

Uncle Bobby · Post by **Uncle Bobby** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:08 am

Josh -- Cool website.

Matthew O'Hara · Post by **Matthew O'Hara** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:45 am

Uncle Bobby- one used to be able to find a good pint of Beamish at Castro's Lounge in the beaches, that was a while ago though. More recently they've had Fuller's Porter on tap which was quite good. Over the last few years I've noticed the virtual disappearance of Murphy's Stout on Ontario taps. I don't really miss it but it at one time had a fairly significant presence here.
Josh- surely you don't begrudge the rings caused by nitrogenation on a glass of the much-ballyhooed (deservedly, I think) McAuslan Oatmeal Stout. The use of a gas blend of nitrogen and carbon dioxide for draught dispense of stouts is the industry norm. I'm hard pressed to recall any naturally carbonated stouts available in the province. If you know of any please pass along the info. I did try the bottle conditioned Burton Porter when it was available at the LCBO and was extremely disappointed.

[ This Message was edited by: Matthew O'Hara on 2003-03-19 11:57 ]

Kid Presentable · Post by **Kid Presentable** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 2:39 pm

just because something is the industry norm doesn't make it good. I personally think that st ambroise through nitro is nowhere near as good as the bottled version and I wish that toronto bars would have the balls to ask for it nitro free.

kp

PRMason · Post by **PRMason** » Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:13 pm

We don't "nitrogenate" our Black Irish Plain Porter. I realise that it's not a stout, but it does hold its head rather well and leaves legitimate "brussels lace" on the glasss with each sip.
Guinness' success has as much to do with texture as flavour. Nitro does give it the texture and the "cascading", but it does so at the expense of aroma. You can't argue with success I guess...

[ This Message was edited by: PRMason on 2003-03-19 22:14 ]

Matthew O'Hara · Post by **Matthew O'Hara** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:35 am

Kid Presentable- I certainly agree that just because a product adheres to a particular industry norm, it won't necessarily be good. Though I also enjoy McAuslan Oatmeal Stout in the bottle, I happen to have a preference for St. A Oatmeal Stout on tap. There is at present only one draught offering of this beer (nitrogenated). It's a pity you find it inferior to the bottled version. Maybe you would find it more productive to encourage your favourite haunts to carry a couple of bottles of this elixir rather than to expect a fairly dramatic change of packaging procedure to accomodate your particular tastes. Six packs of this product are available at many LCBOs
To return to the original intent of what I was trying to convey to Josh; I believe that while nitrogenation may be less desirable than natural carbonation it can and does play a significant role in many praiseworthy stouts. Having said that, I recognize the validity in PR Mason's statements regarding nitrogen's role in subverting hop aroma. It should be noted, however, that despite references to "brussels lace", no one thusfar to my knowledge (including Perry) has stepped forward with an Ontario stout that is either naturally carbonated or cask conditioned.

PRMason · Post by **PRMason** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:04 am

Actually, we did one run of Black Irish in cask conditioned form. Admitedly, it was a done in conjunction with last years Chicago Real Ale festival. The Porter was entered and tasted sublime (a father's pride showing a little?) but it did not garner any awards. We use less than 5 % roast barley in the Porter, which according to their guidelines made it a stout, so it was out of class. Just a point here: Roger Protz, the editor of CAMRA's Good Beer Guide( and a very well respected author on the subject of beer) states that the difference between an Irish Porter and an English one is the presence of roast barley in the Irish. The English varieties rely on Black Malt.
We did release a small amount of Cask conditioned Black Irish which was well received, but the nature of real ale requires that it be sold very quickly. Trouble is,in most bars in Ontario, black means Guinness and most black beer drinkers look no further.Thank the Lord that the Oatmeal Stout, nitro or not, is available. It is a world class stout!

Matthew O'Hara · Post by **Matthew O'Hara** » Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:25 pm

Perry,
Is there anywhere in the GTA or west thereof that I might currently find the Scotch Irish Plain Porter? Actually, I'd be happy to hear about the whereabouts of any of your libations in the region. Thanks. Nice job with the background info on the stylistic profiles of porter. Slainte!
Matthew