So I was talking to a beer 'Representitive" I ran into last night and we chatted a wee bit, and this whole "we don't use GMO"s" sentence came out. Well not naming any names it was a product that uses adjuncts and preservatives.
How do you guys feel about this in relation to beer. Sure by itself it has grown (Pun intended) into a serious global issue, but where does beer fit?
I thought it was funny that he used the GMO free slant to make his beer sound "Natural and good". I've had organic beer. I honestly can't tell you in taste, from a non organic. So is it ethics alone?
Or a crappy trend companies use for products to get people from a bandwagon onto a sleek brand line.
Beer isn't labeled like a food product here with it's proper ingredients(Legally), so I think to put organic on something just further misleads the beer drinking public.
Babble Yabble.
Any thoughts beer junkies?
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Genetically Modified Beer?
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esprit
- Seasoned Drinker
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How does pointing out that ingredients used in a beer are organic "mislead" the public. Our St. Peter's English ale uses only organically grown hops and barley, yeast and well water and this is certified on the label by the UK Soil Association, the UK's designated organic certification agency....are you suggesting we're misleading someone? Granted, no one's going to notice a difference in taste but the knowledge that there were no pesticides of chemical fertilizers used in the production of the ingredients is something some people care about. I'll agree that anyone trying to put some kind of health spin on a regular beer is stretching it but there is nothing wrong with the legmitate promotion of truly organic products. In terms of beer labelling laws in Canada, beer made with barley, water, yeast and hops does not require any ingredient list...if the beer contains anything else, it is technically required to have a list of ingredients although the LCBO is inconsistent in it's enforcement of this provision.
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Mississauga Matt
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I think the problem with the "organic" label is that there is no consistent definition of what constitutes organic production.
I do not believe there is any regulatory body here in Canada that governs the practice, although one may be in the making. I don't know who or what the UK Soil Association is, but I'm willing to bet that their rules and guidelines will differ from anything Canada sets up, or for that matter anything any other country sets up.
I do not buy into the "fertilizers bad, organics good" sensibility that is gaining currency with the public at large. I still believe that fertilizers, as well as organic practices, have their place when judiciously applied.
The concern that I have with organic practices is the increased reliance on manuring, which exposes the consumer to a greater risk of fecal contact (mad cow manure on your strawberries, sir?).
The good thing about beer it that it is boiled, and nasty organisms such as e coli perish in the process.
As for genetically modified products (here I'm talking about the insertion of genes from one organism into another, and not cross-pollination), I am generally against the practice, although I do realize that I've probably already consumed some products thus modified.
Given a choice between two beers, one GM'd and the other not, I'd go for the one that wasn't GM'd, provided it could be proved that the grains or hops or whatever were not genetically modified. Given that there are recorded cases of GM'd crops cross-pollinating with non-GM'd crops (i.e., mother nature doing her thing), and the uncertainty regarding the composition of the resulting offspring, the verification process may be very difficult if not open to interpretation. The genie may already be out of the bottle.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mississauga Matt on 2003-02-05 08:47 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mississauga Matt on 2003-02-05 08:57 ]</font>
I do not believe there is any regulatory body here in Canada that governs the practice, although one may be in the making. I don't know who or what the UK Soil Association is, but I'm willing to bet that their rules and guidelines will differ from anything Canada sets up, or for that matter anything any other country sets up.
I do not buy into the "fertilizers bad, organics good" sensibility that is gaining currency with the public at large. I still believe that fertilizers, as well as organic practices, have their place when judiciously applied.
The concern that I have with organic practices is the increased reliance on manuring, which exposes the consumer to a greater risk of fecal contact (mad cow manure on your strawberries, sir?).
The good thing about beer it that it is boiled, and nasty organisms such as e coli perish in the process.
As for genetically modified products (here I'm talking about the insertion of genes from one organism into another, and not cross-pollination), I am generally against the practice, although I do realize that I've probably already consumed some products thus modified.
Given a choice between two beers, one GM'd and the other not, I'd go for the one that wasn't GM'd, provided it could be proved that the grains or hops or whatever were not genetically modified. Given that there are recorded cases of GM'd crops cross-pollinating with non-GM'd crops (i.e., mother nature doing her thing), and the uncertainty regarding the composition of the resulting offspring, the verification process may be very difficult if not open to interpretation. The genie may already be out of the bottle.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mississauga Matt on 2003-02-05 08:47 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mississauga Matt on 2003-02-05 08:57 ]</font>
There are a number of regulatory bodies in Canada involved in the organic trade and most come under the auspices of the Canadian Organic Advisory Board. If you're interested in finding out more then simple Google searches will provide you with a fountain of information. Why is you imagine the UK Soil Association has standards which are dramatically different from those of Canada or other countries? The fact is, they do not...again, if you read a bit about it you'll find that most organic certification bodies have roughly the same standards. As for you manure fears, sounds a bit anal.....
I heard in a darkly lit alley way somewhere that legally in canada a Beer can contain up to 116 ingredients. Should I trust this information.
Espirit, I'm not here to make fun of you or your beers. Settle down and have one.
This whole Gmo issue has many points, a lot of which have yet to be proven. But do I agree that multinational corperations should be throwing armadillo genes in my aspargus? That is another debate.
In regards to beer, do you think that one that has the words "Organic Only" has an advantage over one that does not.
My opinion is I think the organic push and hoo-ha is putting sustainability on the back burner with the need to feed the millions of malnourished people. I laugh thinking about myself turning my nose up to a stir fry strictly because it's not organic. Can you imagine 3rd and 4rth world nations watching us turn our nose up to food? To beer? I cannot do it either. I am so fortunate strictly on the location I was born on this planet. For beer and nourishment.
Ooh and I hate to see grass roots farming practices commercialized for yuppies too.
Espirit, I'm not here to make fun of you or your beers. Settle down and have one.
This whole Gmo issue has many points, a lot of which have yet to be proven. But do I agree that multinational corperations should be throwing armadillo genes in my aspargus? That is another debate.
In regards to beer, do you think that one that has the words "Organic Only" has an advantage over one that does not.
My opinion is I think the organic push and hoo-ha is putting sustainability on the back burner with the need to feed the millions of malnourished people. I laugh thinking about myself turning my nose up to a stir fry strictly because it's not organic. Can you imagine 3rd and 4rth world nations watching us turn our nose up to food? To beer? I cannot do it either. I am so fortunate strictly on the location I was born on this planet. For beer and nourishment.
Ooh and I hate to see grass roots farming practices commercialized for yuppies too.
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Mississauga Matt
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 7:00 pm
Now, now Matt, why the personal attack...you make a silly comment, I politely point out it's silly without saying so and you get all offended...and what on earth was "negative" about my posting...you draw a conclusion about something you know nothing about...I give you some factual information....yeah, I guess you're right, that's pretty negative....I think that your sphincter could certainly give mine a run for the money...
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Mississauga Matt
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 7:00 pm
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doublefist
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:00 pm
Perhaps Rabbit and Matt could beat the crap out of each other in the parking lot for entertainment's sake at the next Bar Towel pub night.
BTW Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout gets two thumbs up from me.
BTW Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout gets two thumbs up from me.
"They drank of huge wooden kegs of mead, which was in fact Pabst Blue Ribbon, but which they liked to call mead..."
If we can leave Rabbit's sphincter and Matt's sexual preferences aside, I think that Tar Bowel has asked some interesting questions. The only time that I've noticed a no GMO label was on some Unibroue literature.
Since they are trying to sell in the European market, this makes a lot of sense. It really is a big deal over there. It's kind of strange that Unibroue ended up in court action over the issue when the folks that certified the products told them that they couldn't advertise the fact that the products were certified. Anyway that's a whole other story.
I think that it's all a question of how a company uses these facts. St Peter's simply states that the beer is organic but they don't make a big issue of it. It's in a similar bottle and similar price range as their other beers and it's simply another flavour/style in their line. I don't see any problem with that.
Unibroue's no GMO is along the same lines in as much as it's not a major issue on their packaging. They may be intending to make it a sales issue but I'll let them speak about that if they are.
The Mill St. Organic that we discussed before is an example of a company really putting the ORGANIC part out front as a major sales issue. Different size, diferent price and ORGANIC is huge letters everywhere. I'm not sure if they're misleading anyone but they sure are jumping on the organic bandwagon with both feet.
The fact that something is organic does not make it better but in most cases it makes it a hell of a lot more expensive. The misleading part of the equation is that the "organic movement/industry" is trying to make the public think that their products are better for them. This is nothing new by the way. It's always been part of the health food industry that's been around for decades. It's now making it's way a little further into the main stream because people are becoming afraid. Their fear is driven by the media that is forever telling them about the hazards of one one thing or another. This entire industry is full of misleading products and it has a history full of scams and lies. People have been hurt and even killed by this industry and some of them have gone to jail for their crimes. On the other hand there are a lot of excellent products within the industry. Most people simply don't have a clue about nutrition and what's good or bad for them. To make matters worse it seems that medical science is forever changing it's mind on issues.
Espirit says " there is nothing wrong with the legitimate promotion of truly organic products". There is nothing legitimate about this industry. There are no recognized world wide standards or governing bodies. There are however a lot of self appointed people and groups that have a vested interest in the industry. There is lot's of information about this topic on the internet and most of it is pure nonsense. You simply can't opt out of the food chain on this planet by trying to consume only products that are "organic" or "No GMO". We could all make a lot better choices if we could seperate fact from fiction but that seems to be getting more difficult every day.
Bailey
Since they are trying to sell in the European market, this makes a lot of sense. It really is a big deal over there. It's kind of strange that Unibroue ended up in court action over the issue when the folks that certified the products told them that they couldn't advertise the fact that the products were certified. Anyway that's a whole other story.
I think that it's all a question of how a company uses these facts. St Peter's simply states that the beer is organic but they don't make a big issue of it. It's in a similar bottle and similar price range as their other beers and it's simply another flavour/style in their line. I don't see any problem with that.
Unibroue's no GMO is along the same lines in as much as it's not a major issue on their packaging. They may be intending to make it a sales issue but I'll let them speak about that if they are.
The Mill St. Organic that we discussed before is an example of a company really putting the ORGANIC part out front as a major sales issue. Different size, diferent price and ORGANIC is huge letters everywhere. I'm not sure if they're misleading anyone but they sure are jumping on the organic bandwagon with both feet.
The fact that something is organic does not make it better but in most cases it makes it a hell of a lot more expensive. The misleading part of the equation is that the "organic movement/industry" is trying to make the public think that their products are better for them. This is nothing new by the way. It's always been part of the health food industry that's been around for decades. It's now making it's way a little further into the main stream because people are becoming afraid. Their fear is driven by the media that is forever telling them about the hazards of one one thing or another. This entire industry is full of misleading products and it has a history full of scams and lies. People have been hurt and even killed by this industry and some of them have gone to jail for their crimes. On the other hand there are a lot of excellent products within the industry. Most people simply don't have a clue about nutrition and what's good or bad for them. To make matters worse it seems that medical science is forever changing it's mind on issues.
Espirit says " there is nothing wrong with the legitimate promotion of truly organic products". There is nothing legitimate about this industry. There are no recognized world wide standards or governing bodies. There are however a lot of self appointed people and groups that have a vested interest in the industry. There is lot's of information about this topic on the internet and most of it is pure nonsense. You simply can't opt out of the food chain on this planet by trying to consume only products that are "organic" or "No GMO". We could all make a lot better choices if we could seperate fact from fiction but that seems to be getting more difficult every day.
Bailey
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Mississauga Matt
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 7:00 pm
Just to follow up with what Bailey wrote, the University of Guelph's food and Safety Network has posted at its site an article by the Food Policy Think Tank claiming that "'Natural' and Organic foods [are] 8 times more likely to have safety and recall problems."
They noted that "reasons for recalls and warnings included failing to label products with potentially dangerous allergenic ingredients, mislabeled products, bacterial
contamination and other serious safety-related concerns.
Pardon the pun, but food for thought.
They noted that "reasons for recalls and warnings included failing to label products with potentially dangerous allergenic ingredients, mislabeled products, bacterial
contamination and other serious safety-related concerns.
Pardon the pun, but food for thought.
And I've read articles and studies from similar organizations that state the exact opposite.On 2003-02-07 13:20, Mississauga Matt wrote:
Just to follow up with what Bailey wrote, the University of Guelph's food and Safety Network has posted at its site an article by the Food Policy Think Tank claiming that "'Natural' and Organic foods [are] 8 times more likely to have safety and recall problems."
The fact is that nearly EVERY individual or organization that releases this sort of information has a bias or agenda that they are serving. Even agencies that are supposed to serve the common good, like the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the Canadian Standards Association, have so many connections with the companies and industries that they are supposed to be monitoring that it's impossible for them to always serve the public as well as we might expect them to.
For the record, Sheryl and I eat a lot of organic food, although our reasons are as much political & economic as they are health related. We're both lefties with strong anti-globalization leanings, and we do our best to avoid supporting multi-nationals like Monsanto and Philip Morris. Eating primarily locally produced & organic foods allows us to do this - although large companies like Philip Morris have their tentacles in the organic food industry as well, so a bit of research is still in order for those who choose to follow this path.
As far as beer goes, whether or not the ingredients are organic isn't very important to me. I just find that I support small local breweries and imports from artisanal, craft & micro-breweries because they simply tend to produce a higher-quality and more enjoyable product. And I find the same to be true of many locally produced and organic food products.
That's not to say that I consider the organic food industry to be pure and innocent and flawless. Far from it - I'm well aware that the industry is rife with such nastiness as price gouging and fraudulent claims of the "naturalness" of various products. Such problems infect EVERY large industry, and it's up to the consumers to educate themselves on what they're putting into their mouths, onto their bodies, etc.
Unfortunately, our world is filled with a vast majority of consumers who DON'T educate themselves, and are more than happy to eat, drink, wear or drive whatever the television tells them to, without giving any thought to where these things come from, who is producing them, and what affect their production and use is having on the world around them.
Anyway, I'm starting to sound like some sort of tree-hugging hippie or something, so I'll shut up now.
Greg