Pump House Grille

[Publican]

Peter Good luck getting some consignment beers into the Pump House Grille. I'd love to see some Sam Smith's, St. Peter's, Hop Back Summer Lightning and Brussels White.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Publican on 2004-01-25 09:15 ]</font>

[Beer Geek]

[quote]
Beer geek, why put in Old Credit which I agree is a generic beer they already have Stella and Old Credit would take up tap space that would be better reserved for beer with flavour./quote]
All I’m saying Publican is for a touristy little area would you not want to promote your local culture...in this case local brewery? You can get Stella in most pubs in the GTA so they could lose Stella and offer some Old Credit and make the experience a little different for the customer. I can’t believe I’m promoting Old Credit, but I guess all our micro’s need whatever help they can get.

[Publican]

Beer Geek Just because Old Credit is local dosen't mean it deserves tap space. To my palate it tastes no better than Molson or Labatt. There are already two pubs in Port credit that have Old Credit beers on tap. All I ask is one tap that is a beer with some bitteness !!

[borderline_alcoholic]

I have to agree with Publican on this. It seems to me that you are in very dubious territory when you start recommending beers that you would not actually want to drink yourself, regardless of how locally they are brewed.

[JerCraigs]

On 2004-01-25 21:20, borderline_alcoholic wrote:
I have to agree with Publican on this. It seems to me that you are in very dubious territory when you start recommending beers that you would not actually want to drink yourself, regardless of how locally they are brewed.

I disagree, while I don't personally drink much Old Credit, it *is* local, and that *is* a selling point. Getting people to try new things is an important first step in getting them to try better beers. That's why all the micros are at things like the Toronto Beer Festival - its a chance for people to try a new thing fairly risk free (ie. small $ per sample, not getting stuck with a whole six pack etc.)

[borderline_alcoholic]

I agree that people should try different beers. However, as regards making recommendations, beers should really stand on their own merits. If a beer is completely uninspiring, then why should anyone care if it is local or otherwise? What really matters is whether it is any good.

If we want selections to improve, then I think that we are all a lot better off in pursuing the acceptance of micro-brewed beers that we actually want to drink and (in the case of making a recommendation to a restaurant) are willing to pay for.

And frankly, if you live in a place which is producing something which you regard as sub-standard, you might not want to draw additional attention to it...

[Beer Geek]

I guess I’m still upset at the fact that Taylor & Bate was never given the support it needed in the Niagara Region. I will admit that Niagara Spray was not a great flagship beer, but in given time and before they closed the doors, they put out some great beer (Porter & IPA). It is unfortunate that the Niagara Region was to involved in their wine industry to give T&B the support they needed to allow them to experiment into other great seasonals. I don’t know Old Credit's situation nor they’re desires to produce great beer, but regardless for a new restaurant wanting to offer something different to their clients, I still think supporting Old Credit in this area is the way to go. And although most of us have moved on from beer like Old Credit, it does not mean they do not have their place. All none micro-brewed beer drinkers have to start somewhere and Old Credit is a good place for that, just like “Sleeman’s” and, dare I say it “Dave’s”, was for me back in University (sorry I was on a budget$$$).

[Publican]

On 2004-01-26 11:39, Beer Geek wrote:
I guess I’m still upset at the fact that Taylor & Bate was never given the support it needed in the Niagara Region. I will admit that Niagara Spray was not a great flagship beer, but in given time and before they closed the doors, they put out some great beer (Porter & IPA). It is unfortunate that the Niagara Region was to involved in their wine industry to give T&B the support they needed to allow them to experiment into other great seasonals. I don’t know Old Credit's situation nor they’re desires to produce great beer, but regardless for a new restaurant wanting to offer something different to their clients, I still think supporting Old Credit in this area is the way to go. And although most of us have moved on from beer like Old Credit, it does not mean they do not have their place. All none micro-brewed beer drinkers have to start somewhere and Old Credit is a good place for that, just like “Sleeman’s” and, dare I say it “Dave’s”, was for me back in University (sorry I was on a budget$$$).

But what is thier place? They seem to be a micro but thier Ale tastes like Rickhard Reds IMHO if you you're a micro you shouldn't mimic the tastes of the big brewers. I agree non micro drinkers have to start somewhere but that could be with King Pilsener or Creemore.

[burgermeister]

On 2004-01-27 03:32, Publican wrote:
They seem to be a micro but thier Ale tastes like Rickhard Reds IMHO if you you're a micro you shouldn't mimic the tastes of the big brewers...

If I recall some articles I read quite a while back, Old Credit ale tastes like Rickhards Red on purpose - they were trying to leverage off the success of that product and give the local's in Port Credit a locally brewed alternative - and they've been pretty successful doing it. Whether you agree with the choice of product line or not, Old Credit has managed to do something that many, many small brewers in this province have not - survive. He's found a niche in a non micro friendly, working class neighbourhood of primarily bud and coors light swillers by giving them a locally brewed alternative to the majors. I'm personally not a fan of their product but I feel that a local brewer who is able to successfully introduce an alternative to MOLAB to steadfast MOLAB drinkers deserves some level of support. I'd like to see Old Credit on tap all over Port Credit. One micro brewed tap usually breeds more - and better micro taps which can only be a good thing. Mississauga needs all the beer help it can get.

[borderline_alcoholic]

On 2004-01-26 11:39, Beer Geek wrote:

I don’t know Old Credit's situation nor they’re desires to produce great beer

On 2004-01-27 09:25, burgermeister wrote:

If I recall some articles I read quite a while back, Old Credit ale tastes like Rickhards Red on purpose - they were trying to leverage off the success of that product and give the local's in Port Credit a locally brewed alternative - and they've been pretty successful doing it. Whether you agree with the choice of product line or not, Old Credit has managed to do something that many, many small brewers in this province have not - survive.

Cool. All of which moves them out of the fledgling brewery category and into the land of the established brewer. Now we can all happily ignore them until they produce *anything* that is actually worth drinking.

On 2004-01-26 11:39, Beer Geek wrote:

but regardless for a new restaurant wanting to offer something different to their clients, I still think supporting Old Credit in this area is the way to go.

I'm afraid that I still take the view that I, as an end-consumer, primarily care about finding a decent beer, and while I agree that some leeway should be given to new breweries, Old Credit appears to no longer meet this criteria.

On 2004-01-26 11:39, Beer Geek wrote:

And although most of us have moved on from beer like Old Credit, it does not mean they do not have their place. All none micro-brewed beer drinkers have to start somewhere and Old Credit is a good place for that, just like “Sleeman’s” and, dare I say it “Dave’s”, was for me back in University (sorry I was on a budget$$$).

What is the problem with people just starting with a good quality beer, rather than just drinking locally produced rubbish instead of mass-produced rubbish? I really do not understand this point at all.

In any case, I have no real interest in assisting an established brewery which produces nothing of interest when there are more deserving micro-breweries out there, whose products I am actually very happy to drink. And I think that a path of supporting random poor-quality beers in the hope of assisting some kind of IMHO mythical progression from macro-rubbish to good micro-beer via micro-rubbish is misguided and potentially very harmful to the brewers who actually do make good beers and we risk shooting ourselves in the foot. It seems to me that it is far better to support the beers that you actually do like in the hope of raising the general standards required of micro-breweries in general and to show that the type of beer that you want to drink might actually be profitable for someone to brew.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2004-01-27 16:13 ]</font>

[burgermeister]

On 2004-01-27 16:07, borderline_alcoholic wrote:

In any case, I have no real interest in assisting an established brewery which produces nothing of interest when there are more deserving micro-breweries out there, whose products I am actually very happy to drink......
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2004-01-27 16:13 ]</font>

And as a consumer of a finer, quality craft brewed product, you shouldn't be supporting inferior product with your dollars or vocal support - quite right. However, keep in mind that you are not the target market for the likes of Old Credit (or Cool, or Great Lakes etc..). Many a quality brewer has failed trying to service a relatively small "Craft" market. In Old Credit's case, their distribution is generally limited to the Port Credit, south Mississauga area. They are trying to provide a local alternative to their neighbourhood and so far, it's kept them afloat. I think part of the initial question was whether or not a local Port Credit establishment should support a local Port Credit Brewer and since they seem to be going after the same target market, I would hope they would, especially if they can make a good buck in the process. I'd also like to see them support the likes of Black Oak and Cameron's, both within a stones throw (well, a short drive anyway) of Port Credit.

[dhurtubise]

On 2004-01-27 16:07, borderline_alcoholic wrote:

On 2004-01-26 11:39, Beer Geek wrote:

I don’t know Old Credit's situation nor they’re desires to produce great beer

On 2004-01-27 09:25, burgermeister wrote:

If I recall some articles I read quite a while back, Old Credit ale tastes like Rickhards Red on purpose - they were trying to leverage off the success of that product and give the local's in Port Credit a locally brewed alternative - and they've been pretty successful doing it. Whether you agree with the choice of product line or not, Old Credit has managed to do something that many, many small brewers in this province have not - survive.

Cool. All of which moves them out of the fledgling brewery category and into the land of the established brewer. Now we can all happily ignore them until they produce *anything* that is actually worth drinking.

On 2004-01-26 11:39, Beer Geek wrote:

but regardless for a new restaurant wanting to offer something different to their clients, I still think supporting Old Credit in this area is the way to go.

I'm afraid that I still take the view that I, as an end-consumer, primarily care about finding a decent beer, and while I agree that some leeway should be given to new breweries, Old Credit appears to no longer meet this criteria.

On 2004-01-26 11:39, Beer Geek wrote:

And although most of us have moved on from beer like Old Credit, it does not mean they do not have their place. All none micro-brewed beer drinkers have to start somewhere and Old Credit is a good place for that, just like “Sleeman’s” and, dare I say it “Dave’s”, was for me back in University (sorry I was on a budget$$$).

What is the problem with people just starting with a good quality beer, rather than just drinking locally produced rubbish instead of mass-produced rubbish? I really do not understand this point at all.

In any case, I have no real interest in assisting an established brewery which produces nothing of interest when there are more deserving micro-breweries out there, whose products I am actually very happy to drink. And I think that a path of supporting random poor-quality beers in the hope of assisting some kind of IMHO mythical progression from macro-rubbish to good micro-beer via micro-rubbish is misguided and potentially very harmful to the brewers who actually do make good beers and we risk shooting ourselves in the foot. It seems to me that it is far better to support the beers that you actually do like in the hope of raising the general standards required of micro-breweries in general and to show that the type of beer that you want to drink might actually be profitable for someone to brew.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2004-01-27 16:13 ]</font>

I know we have had this discussion over and over before, but your attitude towards the whole philosophy of why drinking locally works in producing better beer is exactly why it will never work.

Again..... (sigh).. if everyone was drinking local products, then local economies would be created so that it would be worth for small brewers to brew (ie. make a living). If the market is strong enough, and large enough, then other (many) small breweries would try their meddle in that market. Just immagine if most people in Mississauga were drinking mississauga brewed beer just because it was brewed there, in your opinion, how many breweries could be supported? - 10 - 15? You better believe it.

More breweries mean more variety. Drinking locally is a model that is well established in Belgium, England and Germany - although, slowly and sadly many of those markets are being polarized.

[borderline_alcoholic]

On 2004-01-27 16:51, dhurtubise wrote:

I know we have had this discussion over and over before, but your attitude towards the whole philosophy of why drinking locally works in producing better beer is exactly why it will never work.

Again..... (sigh).. if everyone was drinking local products, then local economies would be created so that it would be worth for small brewers to brew (ie. make a living). If the market is strong enough, and large enough, then other (many) small breweries would try their meddle in that market. Just immagine if most people in Mississauga were drinking mississauga brewed beer just because it was brewed there, in your opinion, how many breweries could be supported? - 10 - 15? You better believe it.

More breweries mean more variety. Drinking locally is a model that is well established in Belgium, England and Germany - although, slowly and sadly many of those markets are being polarized.

Your Ontario model does rather present a chicken and egg situation. Should I be buying and supporting very local products which are not actually any good in order to grow the market (in a very local sense)? Or should the breweries within this market be producing a range of beers where at least some of them cater to my tastes, such that I drink those?

And FWIW, I am advocating drinking of local beers, in the sense of the better Ontario and Quebec micro-brewed beer as I see them - I am not going to worry too much about further localisation than that, as this is a very small immature niche market still. Given that there are some excellent beers within it, I think that supporting those, in the sense of asking establishments to carry them and buying those where available is the way to go, as a responsible consumer. If someone actually wants to drink Old Credit then I am entirely happy for them to ask for that, but that does not appear to be the case here. Instead it is being suggested because it is very local to where this restaurant is, and given how small a niche micro-breweries are, I personally think that we should be supporting the better ones even if that means choosing something from a different City in favour of your very local beer.

And from what I can gather, Old Credit is not looking to be in too much danger of going to the wall.

I also have no problem with restaurants selling beer that I do not like, it is simply irrelevent to me. But, if we are actively suggesting the adoption of certain products, then we might as well suggest beers that we like rather than additional beers which are just not very good.

Also, where have we had this discussion over and over again?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2004-01-27 18:21 ]</font>

[borderline_alcoholic]

On 2004-01-27 16:41, burgermeister wrote:

And as a consumer of a finer, quality craft brewed product, you shouldn't be supporting inferior product with your dollars or vocal support - quite right. However, keep in mind that you are not the target market for the likes of Old Credit (or Cool, or Great Lakes etc..). Many a quality brewer has failed trying to service a relatively small "Craft" market. In Old Credit's case, their distribution is generally limited to the Port Credit, south Mississauga area. They are trying to provide a local alternative to their neighbourhood and so far, it's kept them afloat. I think part of the initial question was whether or not a local Port Credit establishment should support a local Port Credit Brewer and since they seem to be going after the same target market, I would hope they would, especially if they can make a good buck in the process. I'd also like to see them support the likes of Black Oak and Cameron's, both within a stones throw (well, a short drive anyway) of Port Credit.

And I am totally in agreement with everything that you are saying here.

My point with regard to Old Credit, is that *we* on this board who like finer craft beers are not the ones who should be pursuing the adoption of Old Credit in favour of better Micros because it is the most local beer, when much better beers are available.

[borderline_alcoholic]

Oops, double post.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2004-01-27 18:16 ]</font>